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The Holy Bible #144463 12/03/04 02:14 PM
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Lady Valkyrie Offline OP
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What is your opinion on the Holy Bible? Is it the true word of God? Was it truely inspired by God? Has man corrupted the original message that God was trying to convey? Why is it to this day that even within Christianity, so many are split as to the actual meaning of this Holy scripture? Why must so many differing denominations within Christianity itself squabble over its meaning?

Re: The Holy Bible #144464 12/04/04 02:56 AM
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Zulu72101 Offline
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HI Lady!

Your questions are very deep but I will try to answer them as honestly as I can.

1. What is your opinion on the Holy Bible?

My opinion on the Bible is that it is and always will be the Word of God. Directly written to give me guidance and peace in my life.

2. Is it the true word of God?

I do believe that it is. I believe that the lessons from the Old Testament and what God said to and through the prophets still stands for us today. The New Testament is a declaration of the possibilities of living a new life through faith in Jesus Christ. I beleive He is the Messiah sent by God the Father to make a way for us to be in His presence in spite of our selfish sinful lives.

3. Was it truely inspired by God?

I believe that it was. For me, everything in my life is directed by God. He knew me before I was born and He knew who and what I would become. Therefore, everything that happenes in my life is in His hands. So, if He can direct my small insignificant life then He can inspire someone to write down something He wants us all to know.

4. Has man corrupted the original message that God was trying to convey?

This is a little tricky... I believe that we have corrupted the message. We just didn't get it. The life style of the flesh can be so alluring that we have devised ways that were not God's ways to bring satisfaction to our lives. As though we might know better than God. I believe that is why Jesus had to come. God knew we wouldn't get it...so He knew he would have to create a way for us to be in fellowship with Him again. God's true desire was to help us live a life that is acceptable for Him. He wants us to live true to the way we were created. He loves us, He made us and He wants to be with us...we're the ones who have turned away.

5. Why is it to this day that even within Christianity, so many are split as to the actual meaning of this Holy scripture?

This will be another controversial answer... after Satan fell to earth and took 1/3 of the heavenly host with him, he set out to divide people and draw them away from God because he was mad. He uses any means necessary to make it impossible for us to live in harmony with one another. He wants us to disagree with each other. He thinks its funny when Christians can't even agree on what God's Word says.

Also, we are just people and sometimes our small minds (not that we are small-minded as in dumb, or that some are smarter than others, just that in comparison with God, we are smaller and our perceptions are smaller) can't grasp what God is truly saying because we want it to make sense to us intellectually. God wants it to make sense to our hearts.

6. Why must so many differing denominations within Christianity itself squabble over its meaning?

Again, to me, it's the controversial Satan answer. The best thing Satan can do is cause believers to disagree with one another. Pride is the oldest tool Satan uses. If he can make one denomination think they are "better" Christians than another, then he has succeeded. That's why we have to always be on the alert. Jesus taught that all were acceptable. The people He called out the most were the "supposed" teachers of the Law, the Pharisees and the Sadduccees. Jesus told His disciples that these guys were the wolves that were leading the sheep of Israel astray.

Today, we have so many different types of churches teaching their own brand of Christianity. This is not what the early church was like. This is a perfect example of Satan dividing Christians. In Ireland they have actually been fighting violently over whose kind of Christian Religion is better.

I believe that Jesus wants us to unite as brothers and sisters in Him. To walk in our faith along side Him towards fellowship with the Father. To love each other with the kind of love God the Father has for all of us. It's not easy to do, but it's what I think we should all strive for. That's the reason Christ died on the cross. So we could be reunited with the Father. Jesus' death was the ultimate act of love from the Father. He sacrificed His Son for you and me. The meaning of the word "salvation" is simply that we are saved from eternity in hell ("hell" being separation from God) by recieving the gift of sacrifice Jesus made for us to bring us close to the Father. That's why so many born-again Christians claim to have a life-changing transformation when they recieve Christ as their Savior. And that's why so many of us push, prode and cajole nonbelivers into doing it too.

I've probably just raised many more questions than I've provided answers. I'll be happy to answer any others you may have. But remember, my answers will have a Christian twist at all times because thats how I see things.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: The Holy Bible #144465 12/05/04 04:10 AM
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Lady Valkyrie Offline OP
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Thank you so much for your opinions to the questions that I asked.

I'm sure that you have seen my signature and saw the quotation from the Wiccan Rede, something that I hold close to my heart. What youmay not know is that I am a Christian Wiccan/Witch. And no it is not an oxymoron. So lets not go there.

I believe that such sacred texts such as The Holy Bible, The Apocropha, The Dead Sea Scrolls, and The Nag Hammadi Library were written by imperfect men, but inspired by The Divine. I believe The Divine has many faces. I believe The Divine shows itself to everyone in different ways. I believe with the Holy Bible specifically, man has corrupted the actual original meaning of the texts for their own agenda. I believe that the male dominated church swept the aspect of Goddess under the perverbial rug to fulfill their own agenda. I believe that they blatantly left out certain books from the canonized Bible because it didn't coincide with what they were trying to achieve.

I study all of the sacred texts that I have mentioned. I am trying to study certain scriptures in the original languages in order to grasp its true meaning. I refuse to allow organized religion to order me not to seek wisdom from other Holy Texts because of their own fears.

I refuse to blame "Satan" for the acts of mankind. Mankind has freewill. They can choose to stop all this bickering and argueing over such stupidity and come together as one as Jesus taught. They choose not to.

My son has ADHD and Bipolar. He has anger issues. He often tells me that this or that made him angry. I always tell him, Nothing and Noone makes you angry. You CHOOSE to be angry. What you do with that anger is what matters.

The same can be said of the church. You all can choose to continue on with the fighting amongst yourselves, and blame "Satan" for what you CHOOSE to do, or you can choose to be one as Jesus taught.

Re: The Holy Bible #144466 02/08/05 10:33 PM
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anital76 Offline
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hi lady.... Merry Meet and Brightest Blessings!

comming from a slightly different angle on this than the other poster who ansered your questions, i do not blame "satan" for the differences believed by different churches but rather the fact that men being imperfect may use scripture as they want to justify what they want.

i grew up in a wiccan/druid home and have only within the past 10 years studied the bible so i know where you are comming from. i also agree with you in the desire to study the original language of the scriptures you are looking at as words have changed meanings over the centuries and you sometimes need to look at the whole passage in the oiginal language in order to understand the true intent.

anita

Re: The Holy Bible #144467 02/10/05 06:35 PM
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You will find as many others have that the Holy Bible is one of the only texts in the world that the translations and the original language are quite close. Making the Word of God clearer and more true than ever.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: The Holy Bible #144468 02/15/05 11:12 PM
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anital76 Offline
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hi jenna
sorry think there was a missunderstanding here... i didnt mean that the translation of the words have changed but rather there are some phrases which may no longer be used and we therefore may not understand certain passages until we look at the meaning of the original words. for example i remember i used to have a version (unfortunatly i cant remember which it was) which spoke of a "unicorn"... given todays meaning of the word that was confusing... made more sense after finding the word used originally meant a wild bull.

Re: The Holy Bible #144469 02/16/05 05:44 AM
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Thats interesting anital....I wish you could remember which version that was...sounds like an old one...it would be cool to research it...maybe I will spend a little time reseaching some of the old texts and the meanings of some of the old Hebrew words.

I meant that of all the older books and stuff that the Bible is one of the few that the basic message of the writings are true to the original message...

Funny how God's word has stayed the same through the centuries...


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144470 02/16/05 02:14 PM
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anital76 Offline
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agreed jenna....

i would say that is the greatest proof of its being inspired by YHWH. otherwise man would have changed more of the text than it had left... as it is i believe there is only 1 verse which was added which you will not find in the orriginal language and that is 1 John 5:7 which was added in the 16th century (there is no record of it in translations older than this nor in the original languages)

had the bible not been inspired i am sure much more would have been added than these few words

anita

Re: The Holy Bible #144471 02/16/05 03:49 PM
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anital,
I have E-Sword downloaded on my computer and it allows me to see the root meaning of words...
I went to the verse in Isaiah 51:20 that mentions "wild bull" below is the definition given by E-Sword for this particular word...which kind of explains why your old version of the Bible may have interpreted it as a unicorn...

"H8377
&#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#1488; &#1514;&#1468;&#1488;&#1493;
te'o&#770; to&#770;'
teh-o', toh
The second form being the original form; from H8376; a species of antelope (probably from the white stripe on the cheek): - wild bull (ox)."

Here also is the verse from the KJV:
"Isa 51:20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the LORD, the rebuke of thy God."

The following is from the NKJV:
"Isa 51:20 Your sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the street like a wild antelope in a net, filled with the fury of Jehovah, the rebuke of your God."

Interesting to say the least.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144472 02/21/05 03:53 PM
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anital76 Offline
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hi jenna

i actually just downloaded e-sword myself about a week ago.... joy of sick kids... i have not been online since then. the definitions you mentioned are the only things that made those verses make sence... i have been using both strongs and youngs concordances in my studies for the past 8 years. i find that they are a huge help at times

anita

Re: The Holy Bible #144473 10/17/05 07:22 AM
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Hi Lady Valkrie,
I think so often people ask the same question you ask and when answered I sometimes feel that deep inside you feel the question has not been fully answered but because you seem to recieve a common answer that is repeated by so many people it is deemed correct. (I hope that made sense :-))

Personally I have no doubt that the Bible was revealed by God.
But I like to look at fact also. Im not too interested in the opinion of people who give me ideas on their own personal beliefs because everyone can give you a different answer that way and you may never get the right one.

By facts I mean what is actually written in the bible itself!
In the Preface of the Revised standard version of bible 1952 it mentions that a revision of the bible was needed because they found older manuscripts dating back to 200-300 years after the death of Christ. However the king James Version of the bible was translated using manuscripts 600-700 years after Christ (Peace be upon him).

The bible has some significant changes in this edition. Some verses are taken out because they are not found in the older and more ancient manuscripts and some verses have been added!
Did the bible reveal a different message to the people upto 1952? Than did God Divinly give us something else?
There are approximately 39 different version of the bible on the shelves for you to buy with different lengths in verses some saying completly different things.
The catholic bible has 7 more books!!!

In fact I dont think english is a good a translation as it can be. English didnt begin to exist until 1066. Although it is the most common language, it is not refined as some of hte more ancient languages such as hebrew or greek.
Who knows how much meaning has been lost over translation from the original language of Jesus which was Aramiac.

I can give you more facts but Im sure this message is long enough.
Feel free to private message me if you need to.

Re: The Holy Bible #144474 10/18/05 03:20 PM
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Paula, Wine,ItalianFood,Library Offline
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My 15 cents in the discussion.....

1. The Bible is important because it is a collection of writings that are the word of God.

2. It is inerrent in faith, morals and matters of salvation. This does not mean science or history (see the two different creation stories as an example).

3. The Bible is the inspired word of God. The Holy Spirit provided the ideas, thoughts and concepts to the authors, who then wrote it down in their own words using their own writing style.

4. At times man has corrputed the original message. An example is in Genesis. When God creates man and the animals he gives Adam a respectful responsibility over creation. In English this gets translated as "dominion." This is further transformed into "domination." Domination is not the same thing as a respectful relationship.

5. Many attempt to use Scripture as a sword to hurt rather than a message of love and relationship. A very simplistic answer that would take pages and pages to fully expound on.

6. This is much the same as #5. It's interesting to note that Martin Luther wanted to toss out some of the New Testament. He didn't like James or Revelation. He also wanted to toss out Esther from the Old Testament. The differences between Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox Bibles is an example of where divisions come from.

At the time the Christian Bible was being formed, a Greek translation of Jewish Scripture, the Septuagint, was in common use and Christians adopted it as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. However, around 100 A.D., Jewish rabbis revised their Scripture and established an official canon of Judaism which excluded some portions of the Greek Septuagint.

Christians did not follow the revisions of Judaism and continued to use the text of the Septuagint. There are more direct quotes from the Septuagint in the New Testament than the Hebrew canon.

Catholic and Orthodox Churches continue to base their Old Testament on the Septuagint.


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Re: The Holy Bible #144475 10/23/05 07:05 PM
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In reply to the post by Paula

1. What proof have you that it is the word of god??
2. It is not clear on matters of salvation at all. Some verses tell you to stick to the commandments while others tell you if you simply believe you have a first class ticket to heaven.

***** content deleted as per offensive language by Jenna Robinson Bible Basics moderator********


Please come back with real arguements to the case!

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 10/23/05 11:52 PM.

"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144476 10/23/05 11:56 PM
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kibrisli7,

unfortunatly, I had to delete some of the language in your post. Feel free to rewrite using more acceptable language...I really hesitated because the argument you were making to Paula was an interesting one...but sense the name of the forum...(Bible Basics) and try to find a different way to make the same arguement please.... in here we adhere to the recognized authority of the Bible as God's Word. And lets not detract from that OK?


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144477 10/24/05 06:23 AM
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Hmmm. I cant even remember what I wrote now since its deleted. I know the topic is bible basics and you want me to stick to that. But I was merely answering Lady Valkyrie's post on authenticity of the bible. I can understand why people question the authenticity of the bible since it has been tampered with so much.
Ok Ill try to make my point in a different way.
I hope that it is suitable for your forum.

I understand that in this forum you wish to accept the bible as the word of God.
I can tell you that in Islam we believe that the bible may have once been the word of God. god teaches us in the Quran that the Torah (Meaning the books given to Moses (peace be upon him) by God), The zabur (being the books given to David (PBUH) eg the Psalms) and the injeel (The scripture given to Jesus (PBUH)) were revelation from Allah.

Allah is merely the name in Arabic for God. However it does not mean God.
In fact if you look at the Hebrew word for god it is Eloheem. This is the pluralised form of Eloh. And in Aramiac the name for God was Allaha. IN ARABIC it is Allah. These three languages are all semetic languages and derive from one another. It is used in a plural sense in hebrew in order to associate the name of God as more majestic and prestigious in a manner that suites His Exaltedness.

In Arabic the word gramatically cannot be pluralised. Allah is one and cannot be made Allaheem.
I hope that was not confusing because I went on for a bit! lol

You see we believe (As do all Christians) that the bible has been tampered with. This is fact. Your priests admit it, your pope probably admits it and there is no grounds to defend it. Infact in History we actually know who some of the re-writers of the bible are. And these are historians that are Christian.
And once again ill quote the verse from Jeremiah 8:8

"How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false."

The Muslim belieth is also very similar to the biblical belief that Jesus (PBUH) will return. what we differ on my brothers and sisters is how he departed.
We believe he did not die on the cross. And biblically there is not much evidence to say he did die on the cross.
In the book atributed to Mathew we learn all the desciples ran away and left him.
We are told in the bible that Jesus's legs (PBUH) were not broken. In the phillipenes and some other countries ive seen also, Christian fanatics crucify themselves yearly and all live. It has become a tradition to live out the pain of Jesus (PBUH)
When Mary Magdelene came to see Jesus (PBUH), she came supposedly to anoint him. Who anoints him after 3 days??? Which tradition which culture practices this in the world?? His body would have been rock solid by than. Also when she tried to jump on him, he said stop because he was in pain still. The flesh was hurting. The Muslim belief is that he was not risen. He was alive and kicking.
When he came to see his desciples in the upper room, they were all shocked and scared. They thought they had seen a spirit (They thought he was risen), But he reasurred them saying touch my hands my hair. This is flesh and bones not spirit. Also we know that a spirit does not feel the necesity to eat. He asked them for food and they gave him honey and fish!!
Notice mary magdelen was not afraid of Jesus (PBUH) because she had not fled!

So you guys tell me where in the bible the evidence for jesus dying on the Cross is!!
If your gonna say that Paul says so im gonna have to tell you that Paul also refers to his books as his gospels and thinks of himself as a prophet. He is the source of everything in bible that contradicts the teachings of all the other prophets. He abolished the ten commandments and other directives from god such as circumcision, prohibiting pork etc.
Paul was the murderer of Christians. MASS MURDERER> When he realised he could not break the spirit of the followers of Christ he introduced his own version of Christianity. One that also appealed to the idol worshipping Romans and Greeks. Dont forget that the concept of gods mating with humans and creating halflings is very common in their mythology.
Muslims also believe that Jesus was concieved through miraculous means. But in the same sense that God created Adam (PBUH) when He said "Be" and Adam was!

I hope you dont find the need to delete this one. If you do I will gather that you are just hiding what you believe to be may be true!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144478 10/24/05 06:25 AM
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Quote:
What is your opinion on the Holy Bible? Is it the true word of God? Was it truely inspired by God? Has man corrupted the original message that God was trying to convey? Why is it to this day that even within Christianity, so many are split as to the actual meaning of this Holy scripture? Why must so many differing denominations within Christianity itself squabble over its meaning?



This is all I was trying to reply to. There was nothing offensive in my answer. If you want. Why dont you delete Lady Valkrie's question?


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144479 10/26/05 07:26 PM
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Paula, Wine,ItalianFood,Library Offline
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Quote:
What is your opinion on the Holy Bible?


The original question asked for my opinion, which I gave. You then changed Lady Valkyrie's original question and demanded proof.

That's a different subject.


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Re: The Holy Bible #144480 10/27/05 09:37 AM
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kibrisli7 Offline
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Ok fair point.
Join me in my post than and people who wish to delve into the subject a little can join me.

The topic will be called "Bible and the basis of authenticity"


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144481 11/02/05 07:54 AM
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From my "Biblicist" point of view, I do believe that the Bible is the word of God. IMO, humankind corrupted it by adding several addenda to the original message and also by interpreting the content in different day to day applications. But then, this was to be expected...

Re: The Holy Bible #144482 11/02/05 05:20 PM
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The point is, if everyone accepts that the bible was the word of God but has been changed... how can it still be the word of God???

Im sure the buddhist and Hindu scriptures were once as divine but have also been corrupted.

IF it has been changed than it is no longer the word of God but the word of MAN.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144483 11/04/05 03:51 AM
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Jeremiah 8:8

"How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false." (MKJV)

Jer 8:8 "'How can you say, "We know the score. We're the proud owners of GOD's revelation"? Look where it's gotten you--stuck in illusion. Your religion experts have taken you for a ride! (MSG)

You quoted this scripture from this translation...but the Message Bible puts it more clearly, it explains that it was the RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS that have misjudged and messed up the meaning of the Bible for themselves. The game of semantics is mans game, not God's. It is a lie from the devil that the Bible is not the true Word of God. Only those who have decided that they are smarter than God the Father even try to make the argument that the Bible is innaccurate. When one has a personal relationshirp with Jesus Christ, it becomes clear that we are not better or smarter than God and so therefore accept his Word whole heartedly without doubt.

Rev 22:19 if you subtract from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will subtract your part from the Tree of Life and the Holy City that are written in this book.

God tells us in Revelation that no Word of His will be detracted from this book....semantics have changed nothing in the message of His Word.

2Ti 3:16 Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another--showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way.

God assures us that he wrote the Bible. He assures us that the message in it is His message and that His will for us is as accurate as it was 2000 years ago....

"The Muslim belief is that he was not risen. He was alive and kicking."

Of course you believe this!!! how else then can you justify the rqadical extreme beliefs of your religion???!!! Again, another lie from the devil that Jesus is not who He claims to be....satan wants nothing more than to see you get carried away in your disbelief....it gives him great pleasure to obscure the facts so you will not be in the book of life....thats his goal, and he doesn't care one iota for you in any way shape or form....he will feed you anything you will believe as long as its not in Jesus Christ and God the Father....it's the mystery of the resurrection that is the stumbling block for you... you really can't prove it NEVER happened...not without semantics....and I don't buy into the semantics argument...you can't prove to me it DIDN'T happen so YOU have no argument.

"1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness.
1Co 1:24 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men."(MKJV)

Here is your biblical history of Islam, it's beginnings....

"Gen 16:15 Hagar gave Abram a son. Abram named him Ishmael.
Gen 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar gave him his son, Ishmael.
Gen 17:16 I'll bless her--yes! I'll give you a son by her! Oh, how I'll bless her! Nations will come from her; kings of nations will come from her."
Gen 17:17 Abraham fell flat on his face. And then he laughed, thinking, "Can a hundred-year-old man father a son? And can Sarah, at ninety years, have a baby?"
Gen 17:18 Recovering, Abraham said to God, "Oh, keep Ishmael alive and well before you!"
Gen 17:19 But God said, "That's not what I mean. Your wife, Sarah, will have a baby, a son. Name him Isaac (Laughter). I'll establish my covenant with him and his descendants, a covenant that lasts forever.
Gen 17:20 "And Ishmael? Yes, I heard your prayer for him. I'll also bless him; I'll make sure he has plenty of children--a huge family. He'll father twelve princes; I'll make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 ***But I'll establish my covenant with Isaac*** whom Sarah will give you about this time next year."
Gen 25:17 Ishmael lived 137 years. When he breathed his last and died he was buried with his family.
Gen 25:18 His children settled down all the way from Havilah near Egypt eastward to Shur in the direction of Assyria. The Ishmaelites didn't get along with any of their kin.
Gal 4:21 Tell me now, you who have become so enamored with the law: Have you paid close attention to that law?
Gal 4:22 Abraham, remember, had two sons: one by the slave woman and one by the free woman.
Gal 4:23 The son of the slave woman was born by human connivance; the son of the free woman was born by God's promise.
Gal 4:24 This illustrates the very thing we are dealing with now. The two births represent two ways of being in relationship with God. One is from Mount Sinai in Arabia.
Gal 4:25 It corresponds with what is now going on in Jerusalem--a slave life, producing slaves as offspring. This is the way of Hagar.
Gal 4:26 In contrast to that, there is an invisible Jerusalem, a free Jerusalem, and she is our mother--this is the way of Sarah.
Gal 4:27 Remember what Isaiah wrote: Rejoice, barren woman who bears no children, shout and cry out, woman who has no birth pangs, Because the children of the barren woman now surpass the children of the chosen woman.
Gal 4:28 Isn't it clear, friends, that you, like Isaac, are children of promise?
Gal 4:29 In the days of Hagar and Sarah, the child who came from faithless connivance (Ishmael) harassed the child who came--empowered by the Spirit--from the faithful promise (Isaac). Isn't it clear that the harassment you are now experiencing from the Jerusalem heretics follows that old pattern?
Gal 4:30 There is a Scripture that tells us what to do: "Expel the slave mother with her son, ***for the slave son will not inherit with the free son.***"
Gal 4:31 Isn't that conclusive? We are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." (MSG)


"1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in Heaven for you
1Pe 1:5 by the power of God, having been kept through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time;"(MSG)

Here is a scripture NOT written by Paul...since you don't like him....of course...but written by Peter about God raising Jesus from the DEAD....

and this is said by Jesus himself regarding resurrection:

" Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them (the religious teachers, Pharisees and Saduccees, hmmm...the "scribes" maybe), You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.
Mat 22:31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33 And when the crowd heard this, they were astonished at His doctrine."

notice that Jesus doesn't say the God of Ishmael?

and another written by Luke:

"Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne,
Act 2:31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,
Act 2:32 God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses."

Do you want to continue? I could go all day and all night with this...

One last one because I want to...and I know it is Paul, but it is becuase of your very dislike of him that I use his testimony so much...because I believe whole heartedly that Jesus Christ, the resurrected Son of God changed Pauls life so dramatically that he had to spend the rest of it explaining it to eveyone else...

"Rom 6:7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God."(MKJV)

One last comment to one of yours:

" Paul was the murderer of Christians. MASS MURDERER> When he realised he could not break the spirit of the followers of Christ he introduced his own version of Christianity. One that also appealed to the idol worshipping Romans and Greeks."

This is the VERY ESSENCE of Evangelistic ministries!!!!!....reaching the unreachable sometimes even using their own beliefs to turn them to the Lord...Paul didn't make up his own version of Christianity, he made it relatable...

"1Co 3:20 The Master sees through the smoke screens of the know-it-alls." (MSG)

And I didn't delete everything, just the inflamitory language in your post...

AND the question raised by Lady valkirye is almost a year old...she doesn't even pop in here anymore...

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 11/04/05 11:51 PM.

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144484 11/05/05 09:26 PM
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Jenna, I'm just here to add to your post, not disagree with any of it (quite the opposite in fact!)

Paul didn't start preaching Jesus because he couldn't get anywhere preaching against Him, (come on, under that line of thinking the pharisees obviously won, because Jesus was killed for his preachings!) Paul started preaching for Jesus because the Lord made THAT much of an impact on his life! But you don't like that explanation; because as much as you say you respect Jesus, you don't believe in Him.

How can you have respect for a man that you don't believe 90% of what He preached? There are only 3 options for Jesus to have made all the claims that he made; He was a liar (you wouldn't respect a habitual liar), He was insane (how can you respect the ravings of a lunatic?), or He was who He said He WAS!

There is also the fact that much of Christianity is based on FAITH. God could give everyone concrete proof if He wanted to. But then, how would we be worthy of Him? As Moses was leading the Israelites away from Egypt God gave His people signs everyday, and they still turned from Him.
He asks 3 simple things of us. To admit our sin adn repent of them, to have faith to Jesus was His son and died and rose again for us, and to accept Him as our Lord and redeem our sin. We can NEVER make up for every sin we commit. I don't think we could ever even remember every sin we commited; and God knows this. So He showed His grace and sent a 1 time, last for all sacrificial lamb- the new covenant. You can argue semantics and words all day long; but it boils down to FAITH.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144485 11/13/05 11:26 AM
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In reference to BiblBasixEditor's comment, Im sorry i dont want to go into a debate on whos religion is extreem and who is lead away by satan... Theres no need to start throwing insults. If you cant debate in a friendly manner than I guess your the one with extreemist views. If you would however I wouldnt mind hearing what exactly is extreem about Islam.

And in reply to BiblBasixEditor as well as BellaAsthmaHost, I do believe in Jesus!!! 100%!!!!
The only difference between us is that I refuse to believe that the bible contains the purest form of his teachings.

We Muslims believe...
He was concieved and given birth to in no less than a miracle
We believe He was son to the Virgin Mary (Whom we regard as being the most pious woman in heaven)
We believe He performed miracles to cure the blind and the leppers
We believe that he came with the message from God and that he taught it
We believe He was THE MESSIAH (Or translated as the Christ from the Greek word Christos)
We believe in his second coming
We believe he will fight the anti-Christ (Also known as the Dejjal in the east)

So what exactly do you think makes me different from you? I believe just like you... The things I have mentioned to you are not believed by most christians in the western world any longer.
But WE BELIEVE.
HOWEVER... what we dont believe is that the bible is the authentic source of his teachings. The verses conflict with each other, some of the translations omit verses some add more. ANd how can we prove this is the word of God? WE CANT!!
Simple as can be said. There is no basis of belief. Before you have faith you have to have evidence. You are just blindly accepting the bible as the word of God without any evidence. Infact all the evidence is against this.
And further all the evidence Ive seen to discredit its authenticity is given by christians. If I have said anything it is merely what I have seen repeated from your own scholars.

So who is being extreem? I would say your being extreem by closing your mind to the possiblity that you dont actually have the answer to anything at all.

earlier you quoted the fact that your version of Jeremiah 8:8 says something different than AAAAAAAAAALLLLL THE BIBLE VERSIONs in all the other bibles. So why doesnt it make it so clear in all the bibles?
Maybe that one is the authentic bible. maybe that is the one that is Gods word? Wheres the original scripture in the original tongue? Did you know that no 2 ancient manuscripts from which the bible is translated from match? They all differ. Christian scholars will tell you this.
In fact this debate has been done and dusted before. Christian scholars have come up against Muslim scholars and have always walked away not able to prove a point because you have no basis to make an arguement.

Why not try looking for the debates of "The Great" Jimmy swaggart and Ahmad Deedat? OR look for the works of Dr Zakir Naik.

My brothers and sisters dont close your minds and accept everything as the truth until you really have a good look at it. Ruling out what may be the truth is extreemism!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144486 11/13/05 02:12 PM
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I'm not a bible scholar, I'm just a mom, who came to know Jesus as my Savior for the simple fact that it hit me one day; If I didn't know Jesus - how could I ever teach my children about Him, and how could I live with the thought that their eternal salvation might be missed, because I didn't do my job as a Mom. Then in my journey, I came to know Him for my own reasons, and realized I needed Him just as much if not more than anyone else.

I guess what I was trying to say in my last post was, I don't need proof that the Bible is God's Word. This is one of those areas where I believe faith comes in. You seem to feel you need eveidence before faith, I feel faith is what comes in lack of evidence. This is what I was trying to point out - this is part and parcel of the Christian faith.

Also, I agree with everything you wrote about Jesus, but you left out a few things that I believe.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus is one part of the Trilogy: Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Jesus not only died on the cross for our sins, but was raised from the dead on the third day - in body and soul.

I understand you see this as being extreme, but we are told there is but one way to heaven. To some that might sound narrow-minded, but on the other hand, it sounds extrememly fair. Because that way no one is held up to various "controls" or "tests" to get into heaven. They just have to follow God's instructions.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144487 11/14/05 08:12 PM
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I understand your beliefs. I am aware that the only basis of christianity is faith! There is definately no sound evidence.

I respect that as a mum you are trying to teach your kids what you believe is the route to heaven. That is a beautiful thing.

There are many things that I would accept as just faith. However when something is shrouded with so much doubt and the book that is "the word of God" contains so many errors which some Christian sects claim to be over 50,000, I find it hard to just have faith in believe.

Everything about the new testament has a question mark all over it.
The three days of the resurection has 4 different accounts and 4 different stories, same with the tomb of Christ (PBUH), none of his desciples saw him crusifide they all fled, the 4 gospel accounts all conflict with each other, every single bible scholar there is will tell you that man has mingled with the scripture, There is no quote from Jesus' mouth (PBUH) to say I am son of God or worship me.

YET we are led to believe that it is all true because the guy that was slaying Christians for fun (Paul) says so.
He writes books that contradict the gospels and adds them to the new testament and suddenly the HITLER of his time has become a saint. Thats a bit extreem!!! lol
On top of that all the old testament says worship one god and dont create idols. Yet paul comes along and says 3 Gods for the price of 1 and all you have to do is believe to get a one way ticket. Its really not a question of faith. its a question of logic!

I understand you are not a scholar. Nor am I. I cant claim to be. But I have been studying the bible for some years now and I find it plain to see its not what it is claimed to be.

If you are not a scholar and are not willing to study the roots of your religion you are walking what could be into hell. I am not saying you ARE im saying you COULD be. Because you are only using faith to cover the mistakes of 2 thousand years of mistakes.

There is a very good book called "The Dead Sea Scrolls. The Gospel of Barnabas and the New testament" by MA Youseff.
Check it out. I highly consider it.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144488 11/14/05 10:05 PM
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I know I spoke with you privately, but i want to post publicly, too. I am not unwilling to study the Bible and it's history, it is just that I am just now getting started! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And that's a lot of history to cover.

But, for the sake of debate, why is believing in the Trinity "walking into hell" (possibly)?

Or is it because I'm not following every rule set forth in the Old Testament? (Do you still offer up sacrifices?) - I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but if you insist on adhering to one rule, then you must abide by them all, right? Or if not, then who chooses?

Beyond that, then we get into; Well whose religion is right then? You say Islam, I say Christianity, Arius says Wicca, Samten - Buddhism.

As far as the four gospels, of course they don't match up exactly; they were seen from the point of view of 4 different men- 4 men with completely different social values instilled into them before Jesus came into their lives. That doesn't just disappear because of Him.

If you are at a car accident, and you ask 4 different people what happened immediately afterwards, you are still going to get 4 varied storied, depending on where they were standing, what they were doing, how they were feeling. We have very little idea of what was going thru each of the men's minds when they witnessed the crucifixion; grief, terror, guilt(?), shame, anger, disbelief (like in I can't believe this is happening), helplessness, etc. That has to affect the way a person sees an event. We, and they, are human and bound by these bodies with these emotions. And that had to be THE MOST emotional time in their lives!

But I will study some more, and get back to you. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW - Jenna, if mine & Kibrisli debate bothers you on this forum, please let me know. It is YOUR forum, after all. <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure we can take it somewhere else if need be. This discussion does seem to be at least in the lines of Bible basics, though (kind of) <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Thanks!


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144489 11/15/05 01:05 AM
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kibrisli7


1. There were two of Jesus' disciples present at his crucifixion...John and Mary

2. Jesus is LORD...Alpha and Omega...God and man simultaniously

3. You said "Before you have faith you have to have evidence. You are just blindly accepting the bible as the word of God without any evidence" You need a dictionary...this is the very essence of faith....believing in what you cannot see...Billy Graham put it best for me "We can feel the wind, see the effects of the wind, but no one can SEE the wind...but yet we are sure that it is there..." This is faith

You are so close..but your own intelligence trips you up. Let go of it, if your pride will let you, and just accept Jesus for what the Bible says about him and what your heart tells you is true. Then you will find that the very truth you seek will set you free from the constraints of your own mind....You can't explain God, you can only recieve His love...Your trying to fit God and jesus into your own finite existance...God can't be squeezed into our small universe, He us bigger and grander than we will ever know...thus the mystery of God...You either accept or reject...theres no half way...

In answer to your question about the authenticity of the Bible, kibrisli7, the problem with the discussion is that I DO accept the Bible JUST AS IT IS TODAY as God's divine Word. I don't believe it is corrupted as you believe...that is the basic difference....

I think everyone needs to stop and answer this question first so that kibrisli7 will know where everyone is coming from before continuing with this discussion...

Michelle,
I in no way want this debate to end it is very interesting and you are handling yourself beautifully....I'm just jumping in every now and then to put my own two cents worth in...:)

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 11/15/05 01:11 AM.

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Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144490 11/18/05 01:18 AM
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Firstly Michelle, Great answer. I am happy you have looked at it in such a way.
4 different accounts... However your own Christian scholars will tell you that the 4 gospels were not actually written by the 4 disciples that they are attributed to.
We dont actually know who has written them! But we do know it is not actually likely to be the 4 desciples Mark, Luke, Matthew and John!

You can only learn this if you keep up your research. I am sure you will my sister!


And Jenna... Lol
i dunno where to start. OK OK OK I get you believe in the trinity. I understand that I need to just Let the truth into my heart and let Jesus set me free... But you are telling me the bible is devine word of God, However you are agreeing with me no doubt that there are many different versions of the bible. In the last 500 years how many different versions have been published?? In 1952 they published the RSV and that omitted things that were not actually found in the earlier ancient manuscripts! It says so in the preface!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!! HOW MUCH MORE DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT!????
IT is obvious someone or some people have added some porkys!! (Yes i can speak cockney LOL)

How about the catholic version of the bible with 7 more added books to it? IS that devine with a hint more of devineness?

How about the research done by Christians themselves that found 50,000 errors in the bible? Thats a lot for a devine God dont you think?
"God is not the author of confusion"!! (1 Cor 14:33)

If you want me to so readily and blindly accept the trinity why are you not willing to swing the other way also?
What if it really isnt me that is too proud to accept the truth? How can I accept something as true knowing that thousands of errors prove it otherwise?
Why dont you try to read the holy Quran and than tell me where the errors are? Try to show me what about it proves to you its not from God.
We dont rely on accounts from people that books could "Possibly" have been written by.
We believe the Quran is the word of God and we dont attribute authors as its "C0-writer"


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144491 11/18/05 01:53 AM
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Lol I almost forgot..
ontop of all everything u mentioned you also state that I cannot comprehend that God is infinite and how IIIIII am the one that should stop trying to fit God into my finite existence!!!

HEY WAKE UP!!! your the one trying to make God out to be in the form of a man. Your the one trying to say God had to manifest himself into a human form and than kill himself to save us!! Is that finite or what???
Im the one telling YOU to stop believing this... Yes God is infinite. We cannot possibly comprehend what he looks, feels and smells like!
He is so allmighty, why would he need to put himself into human form and than die to save us? This idea is beyond the belief of my 6 month old cousin.

"He is Allah the ONE, the self sufficiant,
He beggets not, Nor is He beggotten,
And there is none comparable to him" (The holy Quran 112)

Allah! [none has the right to be worshipped but He], the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them [His creatures] in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His thrown extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, above everything, the Most Great. (The holy Quran 2:225)

This verses from the Holy book is a description of God. A description far more deserving of his majesty than the picture you are painting with your finite mind.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144492 11/18/05 05:01 PM
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Kibrilis - I received this story in an e-mail the other day, and I thought it was a beautiful example of why God would "demean" himself to come down in human form to save us; I'd like to share it with you (and everyone else!) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]There was once a man who didn't believe in God, and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays.

His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus, despite his disparaging comments.

One snowy eve, his wife was taking their children to service in the farm community in which they lived.
They were to talk about Jesus' birth. She asked him to come, but he refused. "That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man? That's ridiculous!"

So she and the children left, and he stayed home.

A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump. Something had hit the window. He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet. When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window.

In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese. Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and couldn't go on. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly. A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed.

The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them. The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought. It's warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm. So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide, then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside.

But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them. The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them, and they moved further away. He went into the house and came with some bread, broke it up, and made a bread crumb trail leading to the barn. They still didn't catch on.

Now he was getting frustrated. He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn, but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe.

"Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed. "Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?"

He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human. "If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud. Then he had an idea. He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese.

He then released it. His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn -- and one-by-one, the other geese followed it to safety.

He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind: "If only I were a goose, then I could save them!" Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier. "Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"

Suddenly it all made sense. That is what God had done. We were like the geese--blind, lost, perishing. God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us.

As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought. Suddenly he understood why Christ had come. Years of doubt and disbelief vanished with the passing storm. He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:

"Thank You, God, for coming in human form to get me out of the storm!" [/color]

I'm sorry I don't know who the author is. But God had been trying for years to get the attention of the Israelites, and they had been growing farther and farther from him (look at the journey of 40 years in the wilderness. How many times did God provide for them? And how many times did they turn around and fall into whining and complaining and saying God wasn't enough?) Jesus was His answer, to come to us personally, to experience what we experience, to say "Yes my child, I have been there, too."


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144493 11/18/05 11:08 PM
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quoted from K:

"Allah! [none has the right to be worshipped but He], the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them [His creatures] in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His thrown extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, above everything, the Most Great. (The holy Quran 2:225)"

I don't know what Quran you are quoting from...lol so many different kinds....(sarcasim - free of charge)

BUT when I went to look it up in the version opf the Quran I have this is what I found:

"225. Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. "
link = http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/2.htm

I also found several verses after reading just te first 6 books of the Quran that are radically different that the Bible.

Here's what I found:
1. 4:157-158 : 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Now although this verse says that Allah raised Christ, it also says Jesus didn't die????I'm confused.....denying the crucifixion is anti-Christian and denying Christ's death on the cross is against the Bible

2. 4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

4:172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah.: those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

This is also very confusing but to say that Jesus is not the Son of God is denying Christ's diety as God incarnate. This is against Christianity.

3. 5:14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

So there is enmity and hatered towards Christians preached from the Quran???? So muslims are called by their god to HATE Christians???? .....I'll let this one stand alone....

4. 5:51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Muslims are told by their god not to even associate with Christians or Jews...so what are you doing here?????

5. 5:64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

So "allah" doesn't like the Jews??? We ALL know that enmity of the Jewish people is against God's decree that they are His Chosen People....funny how this "allah" that you claim is the "same" as God Almighty is so against the Jews and Christians....doesn't sound like the same to me......

Personally, I think your confused and full of it...you can't seriously believe that I wouldn't have a working knowledge of your religion and therefore be intimidated into agreeing with you blasphemy here in my own forum....As far as I'm concerned you need to reread your OWN "holy" scriptures and compare them yourself.....in the meantime don't come back in here spouting off about the similarities of the Bible and the Quran.....

all the verses pulled from the Quran can be found here:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 11/18/05 11:12 PM.

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144494 11/18/05 11:14 PM
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beautiful story Michelle..thanks for sharing it....


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144495 11/19/05 07:56 AM
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Firstly there is only one Quran
The verse you looked up was wrong.
try again CHapter 2 verse 255....

secondly yes the Quran states that Jesus is not a diety. Infact the bible states this too. Jesus never claimed to be anything more than a prophet but people after him made this claim such as paul.
Jesus was nothing more than a man and nothing less. HOwever he was one of the best prophets of God.

As for you story, why did God not incarnate himself for every nation so that they may be lead properly? Why just the jews in the time of jesus?
Why did God send prophets before Jesus since He knew that he could not lead them unless He incarnated Himself?
This is a pagan notion. Read up on the gnostic and nicolation ways of life. Infact just reading up on any ancient roman and greek belief will explain this to you.

Furthermore why not look into biblical history a little further. Every prophet came to his people with the same message from God because the people had curropted themselves from the orignal wishes of God.

Ive showed many times from your own bible that a prophet from Arabia is prophecised and that Jesus himself prophecised him also.
Why will you not consider Muhammad as a messenger of God also? I am not trying to be demeaning. I just think we should all be open minded in this issue.
I wouldnt be here if I hadn't done my research and come to this conclusion!

And thirdly you are wrong. YOu are quoting lines from the Quran which are out of context.
Whenever the Quran mentions enmity towards a christian and jew it is meant for the Christians and Jews who are fighting against Gods religion or harming the innocent people.

You obviously have no working knowledge of the Quran. The only thing you have are a few excerpts from a few hate websites that think they can persuade the masses by miss quoting and distorting the message from the Quran.

While you mentioned a few points in which you believe were harsh against Christians and Jews why didnt you mention the verses that praise Christians and jews and the verses that hold them in high rank. The Quran does not paint a picture of hate towards Christians. Believe me its not how your president describes it!

"He has ordained for men the faith, He has revealed to you and formerly enjoined on Noah and Abraham, on Moses and Jesus, saying, Observe this faith and be not disunited in it." 42:13

"And We did not send you (O Muhammad) except as a mercy to all of mankind" 21:107

"O Mary, Allah has chosen you. He has made you pure and exalted you above all women.... O Mary, Allah bids you in a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He shall be noble in this world and in the next and shall be favored by Allah. He shall preach to men in his cradle and in the prime of manhood and shall lead a righteous life." 3:42-45

look how highly it regards Mary and Jesus!!!

God does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. God loves the equitable.
God enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors. 60:8-9

Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous. 7:159

The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with God's revelations are the wicked. 5:47

They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite God's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate. 3:113-114

You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant. 5:82


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144496 11/19/05 08:07 AM
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My friends in Islam Christians are regarded as "Ahle Kitab", meaning People of the book!

Hatred is for the Christians and Jews who are ordering for humans to be killed.
These are the wrongdoers. we live side by side with the people of all religions.
You only have to look into Muslim history to see how justly we have ruled and how our people have co-inhabitted as we are still doing today.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144497 11/19/05 02:12 PM
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Kibrilis - I never meant to imply by my story that Jesus Christ was for the salvation of only the Jews. Quite the opposite! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He's for every man, woman, and child of every nation.

What Jenna meant is the Bible refers to the Jewish nation as God's People. They were the first believers of God, they have a special place in his heart.

I hate to use a New Testament parable on you, but most people know this one that don't know anything about religion; the progial son. Israel is God's prodigal son - they have left Him (by denying Jesus Christ) - but He will always give them "just one more chance". And even in the end times, they have a special, glorious (if dangerous) job awaiting them!

( ok I realize I just opened this up for all the people of the jewish religion to jump on me, but y'all know we've been disagreeing about this point for a loooooong time! ) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144498 11/19/05 07:47 PM
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I know you never meant to imply this.
LOOL now your gonna tell me that all christians believe and accept that they will never be in Gods heart in the same way as Jews? Your accepting yourself as the teachers pet but not loved by the teacher? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry for the rubbish parable)

Allah (Or Eloheem) holds every human being as equal. There is a great verse in the Quran that lets you know how God will judge us all on the day of judgment. What he will use to distinguish judgement from one person to another...

Verily, the best of you with All�h is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [meaning fear of Allah or piety] Quran 49:13

Isreal has no special status. Where is the evidence to say that they will get special status and a special test?
We will be tested with the anti-christ as you call him. (The Dejjal in arabic)


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144499 11/20/05 04:12 AM
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As for the verse YOU quoted in the first place...you wouldn't have looked so bad if you had tagged the verse correctly int he first place. Yes, the verse is the same....2:255, not 2:225 as K previously tagged and I cut and pasted from his post.

When you are referring to the Quran as the only Holy Word of God, I only have one question for you, why then was it written so many decades after the Holy Bible? My evidence of this comes from a verse in the Bible from Acts (written by Luke and commenting on a missionary journey of Barnabas).

"Act 11:25 Then Barnabas went on to Tarsus to look for Saul.
Act 11:26 He found him and brought him back to Antioch. They were there a whole year, meeting with the church and teaching a lot of people. It was in Antioch that the disciples were for the first time called Christians."

The date of this book was written was between A.D. 63 and 70. AFTER Jesus' death on the cross. So if the followers of Christ were FIRST called Christians by 70 AD, then that means the Quran was written well after that, making it a COPY of the Bible in many respects and written as to confuse people and strip Jesus of His diety. Not to mention enmity and hatred between Muslims and Jews and Christians, to use the same terms written in your "holy" book.

"John 8:19 Then they said to Him, Where is your father? Jesus said to them, You neither know Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Jesus is speaking to the jewish religious leaders of His day. Jesus says EXACTLY who He is!... You choose to argue against Jesus and so you show your true colors as a Muslim..hostile towards Christians...it's in your nature to hate us after all Mohammed WAS a prophet to your people AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the one true Messiah. And your people misunderstood his message (Mohammed"s) and choose to worship him instead of the Christ or the Father. Thats the nature of Satan, he loves to take the message of Christ and skew it, to make it unbelieveable or confusing. This is his way. Read Genesis...when God tells Adam not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil, God says that Adam and Eve can eat from any other tree but that one. Satan then askes Eve (not Adam, who was standing right there) whether God said they couldn't eat from ANY of the trees...Eve answers that they could eat from any tree except that one or they would die. Satan defies God by saying "You will surely NOT die." Satan thinks he knows more than God....that was why he was cast out of heaven in disgrace and he vowed to take as many of us with him till the end of his time...

you'll never change my mind, you'll never prove your case, not here, not with me, you may lead others astray with your clever words and phony education, but not me. I know the truth and the truth has set me free. I am able to discern the Word of God in the midst of the twisted lies of the devil....

Not all Islamic people are evil either...not all Christians are mean spritied or arrogant....no the world is a very diverse place...and you are not so far from the truth, your just reading the wrong book....IMMHO (in my most humble opinion)

I will try to read your book with an open mind if you will try to read mine without casting prideful judgement upon it...then maybe after a time we could come together again for a meeting of the minds... my guess is you would move closer to my side in agreeing that much that was written in the Quran is miming the Word written in the Bible. And since the Bible came first, you would then have to concede that the Bible is the true Word of God and indisputable. But I don't think any of this will happen unless you really want it too...

"Rev 21:6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the Water of Life freely."

Surah 112:1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;4. And there is none like unto Him.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144500 11/20/05 11:52 AM
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The verse must have been a typo on my behalf sorry about that.

I can see your making a lot of judgments about Islam without much knowledge of it.
Yes the bible came first, but the scripture given to Jesus came after the scripture to Solomon, David, Moses and Abraham (Peace be upon them all).
So is it right to say whats in the new testament should be disregarded because the old testament came first?
The Quran is the last testament of God.

"Sing unto the Lord a NEW song... Isaiah 42:10
"Let the Wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, and the villages that Kedar doth inhabit..." Isaiah 42:11

God is telling you about a new scripture in a new language from Kedar. Kedar was the second son of Ishmail and the people of Arabia in that time were often refered to as the people of kedar.

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,My Elect One in whom My soul delights!I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles." Isaiah 42:1

This above verse cannot be Jesus.
"But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mathew 15:24

And Jesus makes this obvious again in Mathew 10:5-6.

Allah had Sent Jesus as a prophet to his people only. The Jews. Not to the gentiles. As you can see he had another prophet in mind for this. His name was Muhammad from the land of Kedar.

In the following verse Jesus tells us that it is not himself who will be preaching to the gentiles because he was not even succesful with his own people. But he tells us about another prophet which he will send.

"...the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me" John 16:7-9

The word Helper here is translated from the word Paracletos meaning "The praised" in Greek. This word Paracletos is directly translated into the arabic root word Hamed. the word Mu-hammad means "praised much".

Also the above verses of john and Isaiah talk very similarly of a prophet who will reprove the world of sin.

It would be good if you read the holy Quran with an open heart. Believe me I have considered Christianity with an open heart and sometimes I still sit and do the same thing. The reason I never come to the conclusion of it being devine is because it has been changed so many times. The verses conflict so much and it is filled with error. As a muslim I am commanded by Allah in the holy Quran to read. The prophet Muhammad has ordered every Muslim to seek knowledge, therefor it is required of me to seek the knowledge of every holy book and consider it with an open mind. So I have done this and when ever I am posed with a question I must answer only of what I know. It is not of the religion of truth to speak falsehood. That is why I will never answer a question I do not know the answer to incase by accident I say something wrong about God which I have no right to do so.
But how can a Christian do this when the version of the bible they are reading from is considerably different from the bible of another fellow christian?

It is not a question of me being misguided because I am ever open to suggestion and truth.
The problem is that your book points the truth and you turn away from it.

As for us worshipping Muhammad... you are mistaken. All our worship is for god only. we cannot see God so we do not make images of him as you are also adviced not to do in the bible yet we have images of Christ who is supposedly your Lord.

Muslims do not worship Muhammad. We only worhsip Allah (god).
We follow the teachings of Muhammad, which we believe is the same teachings of all the prophets of God from Noah to Moses to Jesus.
We believe in 1 god and 1 God only. We do not given the characteristics of human beings because as you mentioned in an earlier post we cannot comprehend his power and being so we dont try to. We dont make images of him but we recognise him thorugh his characteristics such as Al-Rahman (The most gracious), Al-Qudus (The holy) Al-Salam (The giver of peace and security) etc...

read the Quran and like you said one day we will come together again God willing and have this discusion.
You will see there is no confusion in the Quran. Even though it does not contain what you want to hear, it is clear in its message. you may not agree with it but you will not be able to discredit it in any form. you will not find errors and contradictions.

Yes it contains stories from the bible because Allah is reminding us of past nations and the stories of old which He wants us to take example from.
Which book would you rather believe the one full of error or the one free from it? Logic!

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon you all and may Allah guide us in truth. Me and yourselves in order that the wrong may be guided to truth. Whether its you or me!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144501 11/21/05 03:52 PM
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I think I would rather follow the one Book divinely inspried by God the Father.

I can tell that you can never understand why. It is through faith that we are saved not by works....there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation..it is a free gift from God...grace is unmerited favor...a concept that is foreign to Muslims...I know...because there are so many rules and regulations attached to your religion. I don't follow a religion, I follow Jesus...I believe Jesus IS God. I don't believe allah is God. I don't beleive it's subjective....I can't just choose to interpret the teachings of the Lord however I want to. It seems like Islam is like that tho. The Quran is so confusing and is really redundant with no real base of belief but only a vague undercurrent as to allude to a teaching one never recieves by reading the book....as tho the reader isn't important enough to recieve the message...

I also haven't much to go on but what I see around me. I see Muslim people killing themselves and other innocent people for the sole purpose of pleasing their god....this is in direct conflict with Christian beliefs....where murder, even self-murder is a sin....I also see Muslims hating Christians and calling for death for the "infidels" which I have seen only means Christians and Jews.

I have seen beheadings and bombs and terror world wide in the name of jihad...holy war...war for allah....who can't be my God....don't write to me about the crusades....another war started by the jihadists.....do your homework...

How can there be so many different followers of the same religion...some who say "hey, it's not diffeent than Christianity, it's a continuation of it" like you say, and then those who say "Christians and Jews must die and lets kill them and ourselves in the name of allah so we can go to heaven, this is the only way" How can one religion be in direct conflict of itself and still be of God? It can't. God can't be divided against himself...

It's hard to see someone who is so close to recieving the truth..as if God himself is pricking your subconscious, pointing the way, but the blinders of lies have been so deeply ingrained that instead of admitting that you have been following the wrong road for so long, you pridefully try to incorporate the two beliefe systems into one so your intelligence won't be questioned...I can tell you that here, in Christianity, we don't care HOW you come to the truth and are saved, BUT that you ARE....

God desires that all are not lost...no not one...


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144502 11/22/05 03:43 PM
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Kibrilis, I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond to you. I have been dealing with your last post to me with quite a heaviness of heart and discouragement.

Sometimes it seems like you pick apart the arguments on the most simple principles solely in order to debate the topic.

Of course I did not mean that God loves the Jewish nation more than any other.

It were as if you had two children, one who constantly rebelled against your advice and eventually ran away from home; and another who tried their best to do as you said, and grew up to live close to you. One day your rebellious child sees the error of his ways, comes back weeping, apologizes and says he wishes to mend his relationship. Would you not be overjoyed to have this child back in your arms? This is how God feels about the Isrealites; they are His "prodigal son" and one day will come back to Him. It does not mean He loves us any less, just that he will be thrilled to have His lost flock returned.

<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feel like Jenna, that you teeter on the edge of understanding, but I fear you are unwilling to take a step of faith. You keep coming back to the fact that the Bible has mistakes, but it is people that do not believe in it in the first place that go looking for these mistakes. If someone looks hard enough, they will find what they are looking for. Satan will make sure of that.

Jenna, I think I need to back out of this debate for a while. It is getting too hard to keep my emotions in check. Kibrilis, I truly pray that someone can say something that will pierce your heart, but I don't think that person is me, and I fear that if I keep going, I might do more damage than good, because I dont yet have all the answers you want. The only answers I have are hope, faith, grace and love. Those are enough for me.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144503 11/23/05 03:19 PM
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Michelle,
You have to do what you have to do....however, I just want to say something, the feeling of despair that you feel is not because of this debate; it's because you (like me) feel discouraged that someone can contunue to be stubborn and unmovable against God and His unending love for us. I mean, how can anyone continue to turn away from the truth of His Word? I don't undertand it myself. That's why I continue to come back to the same point with K. So close but so far....It's a real pet peeve with me when someone trys to intellectualize the Bible. Because I don't feel God's love for me on an intellectual level. It's emotional. And thats where the walls always seem to come up....why can't everyone just let down their prideful intellectual walls that they hide behind and find the Lord waiting for them there???

K, no one is saying you don't beleive in God....on the contrary, I feel that your faith in God is strong, you have just been reading only a part of the story...like Paul harvey says, "Now, for the REST of the story..." Stop tearing down God's Word.....you aren't more intellegent or better than God...read Job, I feel this book has been written just for peopel like you who think they know more about God....stop letting semantics be a stumbling block for you and open your heart to the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....you will be pleasantly surprised.

As for this whole discussion....I think we've established that the Holy Bible IS the divine Word of God. That no matter what all of our different opinions might be, the holiness of God's Word can't be duplicated or mocked...the Bible has stood the test of time. It has been translated into so many different languages and distributed almost all over the world. Muslims and Jews and other people of other religions have read it and are reading it and the one conclusion that they have to come to is always that they feel it IS God's Word, they may not agree it is the SOLE Word of God, but it IS the Word of God. So the question that Lady Valkirie asked 1 year ago has been answered.....the Bible IS GODS WORD......indisputably....now it's up to you....if God speaks to you will you listen and obey Him or will you rebelliously turn away??? This is the end result....your obedience. God doesn't change...He stands at the door and knocks, will you answer?

I think this discussion is finished...I will leave this strand open thru Thanksgiving weekend, but after that it will be closed.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144504 11/23/05 07:22 PM
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Sooo, back to the original question: I'm half-Jewish, half-Quaker, I was raised with primarily Quaker beliefs, although we celebrate lots of holidays (that's the best part about being multifaith-the holidays-I'm only half kidding). Anyhow, because the essence of the Quaker viewpoint is that you must decide for yourself about the Bible, interpreting it yourself and with the help of other Friends and scholars, and you must ultimately come to God on your own terms.

My personal belief about the Bible is that it is a wonderful piece of folklore which has huge historical implications, if you can look past things. Starting near the beginning, I believe that the conflict between Cain and Abel was a folkloric retelling of a conflict between the agricultural Aryans and the pastoral Semites. Those who bear the mark of Cain are descendents of the very earliest Aryan tribes, who were much whiter than other tribes around them. I believe that the mark of Cain means white skin, and if white-skinned people haven't caused some suffering, than I don't know who has. Anyhow, that's just a basic, easy-to-tell example.

If you read the Torah in Hebrew and match it up with the parts of the Bible that have been translated from it, you get huge discrepancies, I'm afraid. You also lose a lot of essential stuff by not being able to read the Bible in its original languages... for example, any Hebrew speaker knows that Adam means Man and Eve means Life. Think about the ramifications of that! They're huge! I'm a translator by training (I was a modern languages major in College), so I have a pretty firm grasp on which translation liberties are okay to take, and which aren't. Go debate some Genesis with a Jew sometime, and you'll discover that you're actually arguing about different things, simply because the translation is so off.

Re: The Holy Bible #144505 11/29/05 04:35 AM
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Interesting comments Megan, I would LOVE to sit with someone who can translate the Torah and the Latin manuscripts of te Bible to grasp the whole meaning of God's Word....but I don't think the question is really the validity of the Bible but rather the divinity...

but I still stand behind the validity of the Bible...I try to not get all mixed up in semantics..and from my experience it's been scholarly people who argue semanitcs instead of studying the meaning behind the words....the heart message is what I relate to most....but I would find it interesting....thanks for your two cents worth...:)


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: The Holy Bible #144506 11/29/05 04:55 AM
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Hi, I am new I was wondering is this the forum for parents of children with Autism and Fragile X or have I wondered to far from my google search? I am a Christian so I felt most comfortable asking here. Thank you. Just for the record you need to be very careful of what you take literally out of the bible. I was watching a special on Mel Gibson "The Passion" movie director. I wasn't focused on who killed Jesus and it wasn't just just the Jews, he died for all of our sins. He Had to die so that we would be saved. Does it really matter who wanted him to die and who didn't because I can garrentee that not all of the Jews wanted him dead and not just Jews wanted him dead either. Sorry if I seem like I am ranting. I don't mean to offend or step on toes. This topic is important to me.

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Re: The Holy Bible #144507 11/29/05 12:39 PM
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Welcome Sara!

Yes we do have a forum on here for Autism Spectrum Disorders. Just go to the main menu look under health & fitness and you'll find the Autism site, and I believe we did have a discussion or two on the fragile X syndrome (I have a child with Asperger's myself). But that should show you all the topics we have discussed.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: The Holy Bible #144508 11/29/05 06:04 PM
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Welcome Sara,

You can come in here and ask any question you like...lol.... as for the Passion, I think it was a group of Jewish people who thought the movie would start a whole new anti Jewish movement around the world by portraying the Jewish people at the time shouting to crucify Jesus in the movie....Most Christians understand that it was mainly the Sanhedrien and the Pharisees of that time that wanted him dead...not the entire Jewish community....as such the movie was released and the only people we heard say antying about this subject was the Jewish people who were worried and the media who are always looking for a scandal....no anti semitism movement materialized.....and the movie still ahd the same effect on peoples hearts all around the owrld...

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 11/29/05 06:08 PM.

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Re: The Holy Bible #144509 12/05/05 12:53 PM
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Quote:
secondly yes the Quran states that Jesus is not a diety. Infact the bible states this too. Jesus never claimed to be anything more than a prophet but people after him made this claim such as paul.
Jesus was nothing more than a man and nothing less. HOwever he was one of the best prophets of God.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1-4


This is the prologue of the Gospel of John. It speaks of the hypostatic union of Jesus--true God and true man. Jesus is the Word made flesh. To say that the Bible doesn't speak of Jesus' divinity is incorrect.

There are many other verses as well that speak to Jesus' divinity.


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Re: The Holy Bible #144510 01/16/06 04:53 AM
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ZULU72101 You are correct verymuch.
If I may share my finding with you . Read this:
Is consider as false preaching.
It is written, it must be known.
None of the so called Christian Churches teaches the Word of GOD,
The way GOD commended. [ they ignore ] many important
commandments , such as : 1Corinthians 3:16-17 1Corinthians 6:15-20
Act 7-48 Act 17-24
This false teachers are guilty according to Revelation 22:18-19
And this will happen to them on judgment day read: Matthew 7:22-23
If they just teach the Word of GOD , according to His Will,
This world will be a better place to live in.
But satan ( uses-inspire- dictate ) the Christian Churches
to mislead mankind.
For the benefit of satan the devil himself , satan don�t want us to know
that we are GODS TEMPLE , because it is unmistakable clear that
satan can not enter GODS HOLLY TEMPLE. Simple as that.

(Galatians
> > 1:8). This verse means that if anyone, even an angel, preaches
> > anything that is different than the true gospel, they shall be
> cursed
> > and we are not to accept it. We are always to test the spirits (1
> > John 4:1-3). This is one of the reasons why there are so many
cults
> > in the world today; people disregard this verse.

Last edited by matthew24; 01/16/06 06:54 PM.
Re: The Holy Bible #144511 05/28/06 06:50 AM
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My friend thankyou for your reply.

I am afraid your not getting the idea.
Firstly you mentioned that muslims are blowing each other up.
The scripture in Islam is clearly against such actions so any so called muslim that participates in terrorism or suicide is not following the rules of Islam. This kind of act is not acceptible in Islam or any other religion. It is a shame they act on the name of a religion while not following its rules!

Secondly you mentioned you dont believe in Allah as being God but you mention that you believe in the bible!!
Do you know what Allah means?? obviously not!
IN the old testemant the majority of times, the word for God is Eloheem. The Hebrew word meaning the most high.
However the word Eloheem is a word in plural sense. The singular form would be Eloh.
The reason the plural form is used is because it donates a status of respect for the mentioned name in Hebrew.
The word Eloh means "the most high".

Why not ask our friend who speaks hebrew also.
The word used for God in aramiac is ALLAHA. also meaning the most high. and the word used in arabic is ALLAH - ALSO MEANING THE MOST HIGH!!!!
Get your facts straight my brother.

Also you mention you do not follow a religion but you follow Christ.
Im not even gonna bother replying this. My previous posts say enough.
What i dont understand is. how can christians scholars admit that the bible is of doubtful authenticity and Christians not accept this!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144512 05/28/06 07:25 AM
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Hello all I just want to say I am enjoying reading this thread. I am very young spiritually and feel I am not ready to add to this debate but your opinions are quite interesting and Kibrisli7 you make some valid points....very interesting indeed.

I have just come back from watching the divinchi code at the pictures and it was a very good movie.It really gets you thinking and I am glad I went to see it.

Re: The Holy Bible #144513 05/28/06 07:32 AM
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oh ouchi see where you coming from but where do you get
how can christians scholars admit that the bible is of doubtful authenticity? its true that while we may not know all of the oreginal meaning of word use back in the day most of the scholares think/know that there are documents written back when that the Bible came from. Doesnt Musilims

Michelle, you said: You keep coming back to the fact that the Bible has mistakes, but it is people that do not believe in it in the first place that go looking for these mistakes. I think that believer see mistakes and dont ask or get put down for asking. sure you can find a mistake and ignore it or deny it but i think if we dig deep enough we will find the mistake is the way we interperate it or that there is something hidden in plan site that we need to solve like Gods puzzle to His Kids! just a thought.


All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. judge not lest ye be judged.
Re: The Holy Bible #144514 05/28/06 08:10 AM
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ok did i miss something you said:
Is consider as false preaching.

It is written, it must be known.
None of the so called Christian Churches teaches the Word of GOD,
The way GOD commended. [ they ignore ] many important
commandments , such as :
1Corinthians 3:16-17 which is the sonsof Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son,Zedekiah his son. The sons of Jeconiah, the prisoner, were Shealtiel his son. and
1Corinthians 6:15-20 this is also genelology and
Act 7-48 says "However,the Most High does not dwell in house made by human hands: as the Prophet says: and in 40-50 thatHeave is Gods House and Earth is Hes foot stool and asked the question Did I not make every thing? and
Act 17-24 is talking about how God made the world and everything in it and He is Lord over heaven and earth and does not dwell in Temples.
so what do these versus have to do with false prophets? or was this a typo? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />


All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. judge not lest ye be judged.
Re: The Holy Bible #144515 05/28/06 08:12 AM
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Act 17-24 is talking about how God made the world and everything in it and He is Lord over heaven and earth and does not dwell in Temples

I have always believed this.

Re: The Holy Bible #144516 05/29/06 07:06 AM
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oh ouchi see where you coming from but where do you get
how can christians scholars admit that the bible is of doubtful authenticity? its true that while we may not know all of the oreginal meaning of word use back in the day most of the scholares think/know that there are documents written back when that the Bible came from. Doesnt Musilims

Michelle, you said: You keep coming back to the fact that the Bible has mistakes, but it is people that do not believe in it in the first place that go looking for these mistakes. I think that believer see mistakes and dont ask or get put down for asking. sure you can find a mistake and ignore it or deny it but i think if we dig deep enough we will find the mistake is the way we interperate it or that there is something hidden in plan site that we need to solve like Gods puzzle to His Kids! just a thought.


It is a known fact that the original manuscripts of the bible do not exist. It is not a case of faith.
You mentioned that maybe people interprit the books wrong. No the problem is that there are no books that are written by the orginal authors. We know the meanings of probably everything written in the old scriptures. It is not a case of translating wrong by accident.

The King James Version of the bible was translated using scriptures discovered to be 700-800 years after Christ. In the late 1800's they discovered more scriptures of the bible and they said these were about 400 years after Christ.

The problem is that there is nothing with the signiture of Christ. And to add to this fiasco people are calling the bible the word of God when it has been reported to contain over 50,000 errors.

People are making a big fuss over the Da vinci Code. Its not surprise for me because I have been saying for years that the original manuscripts were destroyed around 326ce when the greek ruler constantine commanded them to be burnt.
At least you guys get to see it for yourselves in the cinema because today people are completly blind. They only accept what comes out from holluwood as true.

This is no joke.... i was speaking to a Christian guy in london once and he was telling me how he believed that time machines were real. AND HE WASNT JOKING!!!!!!!! YET he was devout Christian.

The problem is that most Christians will only accept what the priests and hollywood has to say. However the bible doesnt agree with most of their words.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144517 05/30/06 04:42 AM
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My Friend, I have to agree with much of what you say.

I was raised as a Christian and did quite a lot of theological study, and I would have to say that I do not believe that the Bible is the 'Word of God' - it is a collenction of the EXPERIENCES of men who believed that they were speaking for God and of God.

I respect all religions, and I believe that each one has a 'facet' of the diamond we call TRUTH - but none have this truth exclusively.

ALL spiritual writings are valuable in that they teach us about LOVE, SERVICE TO OTHERS, PATIENCE, FAITH and how to live lives that show and manifest these values and ideals.

There is beauty and truth in every religion, and I try to look at all the good things that come from them and all the wonderful souls they have produced who have helped to make this world a better place. Whether they are 'God in the flesh' or prophets, or saints, is not as important to me as the message they brought and the lives they lived - as examples for us all to follow.

To me, it is all about LOVE - and when you truly love, everything else falls into place.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: The Holy Bible #144518 05/30/06 04:49 AM
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To me, it is all about LOVE - and when you truly love, everything else falls into place

Well said! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: The Holy Bible #144519 05/30/06 07:06 AM
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They only accept what comes out from holluwood as true.

lol it true


The problem is that most Christians will only accept what the priests and hollywood has to say. However the bible doesnt agree with most of their words.

i also agree with this people do not want or dont know how to reseach and think and decide for thereselfs. for what ever reason and the ppreacher Priest is view to be choosen by God the lead His flock. but anyone can go to college and get a degree?

To me, it is all about LOVE - and when you truly love, everything else falls into place

i could not agree more when the scence, theology, and polotics are all boiled out you had better have something worth standing for and Love is.

good job!!!


All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. judge not lest ye be judged.
Re: The Holy Bible #144520 07/05/06 02:52 AM
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The DaVinci Code? Rubbish. The DaVinci Code says that Jesus is not divine and when he "married" Mary Magdalene, she became divine. How is this possible if Jesus wasn't divine?

It has been said in these replies that there are mistakes and contradictions in the Bible, and that may be, but can you tell me what they are? No one can. Everyone says that there are mistakes but no one can tell what they are.

It has been said that the Bible has been taken out of context because it is old and has gone through many translations. Has not the Quran? Has it not been translated over the years differently?

I do not believe Muhammad was a messenger of God because he died and stayed dead. Jesus died and lived again.

Buddha preaches self control. Didn't he weigh about 600 pounds? Where was his self control?

I am far from a biblical scholar myself but I do believe God created Heaven and earth. I do believe that He sent Jesus to save us from our sins so we may reign in Heaven with Him. I do believe that Jesus suffered as much as Mel Gibson depicted in the Passion.

I do believe that Satan lives and contorts our minds and ways of thinking so we do not believe in God.

I do believe that Jesus was a dark skinned man and I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Africa.

I believe the Catholic religion is wrong in their beliefs.

I believe and disbelieve many things. However, the one thing I believe and no one will ever be able to tell me different is that my sins became white as snow the day I was baptized in water when I freely accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and I believe Jesus is in His Father's house making a home for me.

I also believe that Jesus died for me to be able to do this and if I was the only person on this whole earth, He would've died for me alone.

Re: The Holy Bible #144521 07/07/06 01:22 AM
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It has been said in these replies that there are mistakes and contradictions in the Bible, and that may be, but can you tell me what they are? No one can. Everyone says that there are mistakes but no one can tell what they are.


Dont mean to burst your bubble my friend but these mistakes have been shown time and time again in this post. Have you read from the beginning?

I have a book that lists 101 contradictions in the bible. CHRISTIAN BIBLE scholars admit that there are over 50,000 errors in the bible.

I could list them all night if you want!!!

Quote:
It has been said that the Bible has been taken out of context because it is old and has gone through many translations. Has not the Quran? Has it not been translated over the years differently?


The point your missing my friend is that the original Quran still exists. Today when you read a translation of the Quran, it never claims to be 'The Quran' but only a translation. Also next to the translations most Quran's have the original scripture in arabic next to it.

Have you ever thought why the bible never has the original next to it? OK I know that from one era to another different languages have been used in the bible. But if it were really authentic the Greek and Hebrew would all be there to be seen. BUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuut.... 2 reasons why they cant do that my friend...

1. The bible is made up of thousands of manuscripts and no 2 manuscripts agree with each other. In otehr words the manuscripts they claim to be original are not the same as each other so no one can decide what the original actually was like.

2. Secondly and very importantly the mistranslation of the bible may lead even more people than the already huge numbers of people to convert to Islam...


For example in the old testament the name used for God about 30% of the time was Jah or Jahweh often also called Jehova.
The majority of the time the word Eloheem is used as God's name (glory be to him).
Eloh in Hebrew meaning the most high. The 'eem' at the end of the word is a pluralisation of the name which in semetic and some other eastern languages assigns a stature of respect to the person or in this case God being mentioned.

In the new testament were aramiac is used. The word for God uttered from the mouths is.... Allaha. This word also means 'the most high'... And funny enough you can see im leading on to say the word Allah in Arabic also means 'the most high'

Another example in the bible is the mentioning of the prophet Muhammad by name.
He (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him), was mentioned by name as Muhammadun in the song of solomon. however in the English translation and probably every other translation this is not shown. in fact the english translation reads "Yeah, he is sweet alltogether lovely"

That takes mistranslations to a new height!
But wait there is worse!!(OOr more should I say)
In the chapter of John Jesus (May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) mentioned that he must go for it is expedient for him to leave in order for the 'comforter' to arrive...
Now the word comforter here in some translations is mentioned as helper, or holy spirit or some other names that actually bear no resemblence to the true meaning.
The Greek word used here is Paraclytos...
The word Paraclytos means 'That which is praised'
Surprisingly the word Muhammad in arabic also means the same thing!!!

Quote:
I do not believe Muhammad was a messenger of God because he died and stayed dead. Jesus died and lived again.


you really have to think before you type... im really sorry I had to say that!!!!! really sorry...
Did Abraham not stay dead? Did Moses not stay Dead? Did John not stay dead? shall I count out all the other prophets that stayed dead? May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all.

We Muslims do not believe Jesus (PBUH)died. we believe he was raised to heaven until an appointed time. When Allah is ready he will send him back to earth and he will rule with the justice that God intended to be provailent!
We believe he may have been cruxified but he never died in the process if that was the case and the bible also contradicts itself on this issue. I can show you if you wish my friend!

Muhammad (PBUH)was a prophet of God and was the last messenger of God. however Jesus'(PBUH)work is not yet complete and he will return.
Before you reject the last messenger of God maybe you should judge him fairly by seeing what he has brought forward in teachings. read the Quran before you can reject it!
As Jesus said in Mathew "you will know him by the fruit that he bears"


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144522 07/10/06 07:02 AM
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ok what is the Quran? isnt it the oldtestment or part of it? maybe im comeing from this with the wrong angle!!! Do you not believe in any part of the bible?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: The Holy Bible #144523 07/11/06 01:15 AM
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Quote:
I have a book that lists 101 contradictions in the bible. CHRISTIAN BIBLE scholars admit that there are over 50,000 errors in the bible.

I could list them all night if you want!!!


I think I am familiar with those; yet, for every contradiction that one person (or group of persons) think or know they found, there is another person (or group of persons) that has refuted it. And then, of course, there are those who have refuted the refutations, etc. etc. etc.

IMO, as was said earlier in the thread, Christianity is dependent on faith. The faith to believe that which we do not see, that which we think contradicts the laws of physics and nature as we know them, and the faith to believe when others are thinking we're off our rocker for doing so. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolling.gif" alt="" />

Re: The Holy Bible #144524 07/15/06 03:29 AM
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The scripture in Islam is clearly against such actions so any so called muslim that participates in terrorism or suicide is not following the rules of Islam. This kind of act is not acceptible in Islam or any other religion. It is a shame they act on the name of a religion while not following its rules!


Thank you for saying this so i don't have too....

Quote:
Secondly you mentioned you dont believe in Allah as being God but you mention that you believe in the bible!!
Do you know what Allah means?? obviously not!


I don't need to argue semantics with someone who desires to be right over being faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ... There may be many words for God, but only one name is above all... Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Get your facts straight my brother.


And if you had visited the Bible Basics Site instead of just popping in the forum, you would know I'm a woman, not a man.

Quote:
Also you mention you do not follow a religion but you follow Christ.
Im not even gonna bother replying this. My previous posts say enough.
What i dont understand is. how can christians scholars admit that the bible is of doubtful authenticity and Christians not accept this!


Actually your previous post simply says that you are a person who desires to be right over being Christ-like to fellow Christians. And the reason you can't understand why Christians can accept the Word of God AS the authentic Word of God is because of faith and grace over intellectualism and pride. My God is bigger than I could ever imagine Him to be. His mysteries are far deeper and more vast that my simple human brain can comprehend. I accept Him over and above that which I can understand. I don't try to box up my God and spoon feed him to the masses. He couldn't possibly lower himself to fit into the cruddy box my mind could create, He is so much more than that. If your god can fit into your little box in your mind, then I say you have the wrong god.

Anything else?...


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: The Holy Bible #144525 07/15/06 06:23 AM
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I find it hard to believe that the bible basics editor cannot say anything constructive. We can make smart alec remarks all day. I am challanging you using your own book as evidence and all you cant reply in a manner which would appease any reader waiting for a reply.
I dont mean to argue with anyone. I am using statements from the Bible to ask questions to people of the bible.

If you think that knowing what Gods name is going into too much semantics than maybe you shouldnt bother doing this. Just give up!
You are not reading the original of your scripture and you are not interested.
Try and read the original and than come back to me.
I can tell you that the name Jesus Christ does not appear where it says Lord. You find the name Allah.

This is not an insult. This is an invite for you to look at the truth. Im sure we can all leave the arrogance to one side and take a look.
If you are going to call Jesus, one of the best prophets of God (Peace be upon him) a god or the son of God, than come to me with proof.
And your proof must have some substance. If you are going to quote from anything have certainty what you quote from is authentic.

One again please Im not inviting a war of insults, but a constructive debate.


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144526 07/16/06 02:24 AM
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One again please Im not inviting a war of insults, but a constructive debate


You end your little tirade with the above sentence; however; you fill this little post with nothing but insults for someone you are trying to be better than. Why try to discredit me? You don't even know me. You don't know who I am or where I come from. You couldn't walk a mile in my shoes because you've never even seen my shoes, let alone, my feet while walking in them.

These qualify as insults:

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that the bible basics editor cannot say anything constructive. We can make smart alec remarks all day.
If you think that knowing what Gods name is going into too much semantics than maybe you shouldnt bother doing this. Just give up! You are not reading the original of your scripture and you are not interested .
Try and read the original and than come back to me.
This is not an insult. just saying this does not disqualify the insult that follows This is an invite for you to look at the truth. Im sure we can all leave the arrogance to one side and take a look .
If you are going to call Jesus, one of the best prophets of God (Peace be upon him) a god or the son of God, than come to me with proof.
And your proof must have some substance. If you are going to quote from anything have certainty what you quote from is authentic .


You're just lucky you said them to me instead of one of my readers or posters here in this forum.

I suggest you read the Forum Code of Conduct for this forum. You can find it here:

http://forums.bellaonline.com/showflat.p...=0#Post22857998

Pretty clear, huh? Just like the Bible... right?

You want constructive debate, then abide by the forum code of conduct and we can debate. Otherwise, we will NOT debate... your choice...


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Re: The Holy Bible #144527 07/16/06 04:30 AM
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Quote:
I can tell you that the name Jesus Christ does not appear where it says Lord. You find the name Allah.



I can give at least one example of where it says "Lord" and is referring to Jesus:

[color:"red"]Mark 16: 14 - 20
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, �Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.�

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.[/color]

Also, twice in Mark, Matthew, and Luke - God speaks from the heavens to identify Jesus as His son. These are basically the same account from 3 different points of view, so really it is said twice - but written by 3 different men.
Matthew 3:17
Matthew 17:5
Mark 1:11
Mark 9:7
Luke 3:22
Luke 9:35


The first time was when John the Baptist baptized Him, God said "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased."

And the second time was just a little before Jesus was betrayed. He took Peter, James, and John (his 3 closest disciples - or friends) onto a mountaintop and showed them more of what He really was like (sort of like when Moses went onto the mountain and God passed before him). And God said nearly the same thing, "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" Except this time God was telling them to pay attention!

There are more instances, but I'll have to keep looking.

The ones that mention Jesus Christ by name are all going to be in the New Testament (which you don't like because you feel it is all written by Paul.)

But there are prophecies in the Old Testament referring to the coming Messiah that Jesus fulfills. I'll go diggin into them next! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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I am not a devout or practicing Christian. My leanings are more toward Buddhism, but I must say here that Christianity is precious and sacred to those who do believe with all their hearts and souls.

I cannot see any point in pointing out that the Bible is, or is not authentic because it is what Christians believe, and it is not kind to continually criticize what others hold sacred.

It is how we LIVE those beliefs which is important, and how we follow the teachings of love which all the great religions teach.

Whether one is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or anything else is sacred to those who belong to these faiths and I think they should be allowed to follow the religion of their choice without criticism and other comments which do hurt deeply.

Perhaps there are many errors in the Bible. Perhaps it is not the original manuscript, perhaps it is not authentic. It really doesn't matter. It is a collection of writings which have started many people on a path to God, to love and to a better life. That is what is important.

By their fruits you will know them.

Bless you all.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: The Holy Bible #144529 07/16/06 11:52 AM
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Sorry Jenna, that post was not meant for you, but for Kibrisli7


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: The Holy Bible #144530 07/17/06 01:59 AM
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>Is it the true word of God? Was it truely inspired by God?

Well, since I don't believe in a one god, this is a no by default. I believe the Bible probably started as the teachings of Jesus and other men (& maybe women)

>Has man corrupted the original message that God was trying to convey?

Well, skipping over the god part (see above) I would say that yes, as more and mroe people got their hands on it, it was more and more altered. There are SO many versions of the bible, even different versions for different christian religions.

>Why is it to this day that even within Christianity, so >many are split as to the actual meaning of this Holy >scripture? Why must so many differing denominations within >Christianity itself squabble over its meaning?

Because everyone is too busy concentrating on who is right/wrong and who is/isn't going to hell/heaven and "interpreting" the bible that they totally oversee the lessons in the bible.

even a non-christian like me can learn about life from the bible, it just takes seeing it with a more relaxed eye.

meg


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Re: The Holy Bible #144531 07/17/06 06:52 PM
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freebubbles2 Offline
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I will agree that part of chirstians are obsesde with being right or wrong and jugdeing others and trying to convert people from one church to the other. they have missed the whole point of the teachings of the bible!!! God does not want us to worship the bible or use it as a sword against others chirstian or not!!! we can study the bible our whole life and never come to the same conclution as someone else on EVERY point!!!

Meg what religion are you? i am sure you have told me but... you know how it goes first the mind then the body!! lol


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: The Holy Bible #144532 07/17/06 07:57 PM
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kibrisli7 Offline
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Well apart from the apart about more than one God. Im in agreeance with you <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The bit about more than one god however not so smiley <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144533 07/19/06 05:49 AM
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freebubbles2 Offline
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Why do you not believe that Jesus is Gods son?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: The Holy Bible #144534 07/19/06 05:55 AM
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Or do you believe Jesus is Gods son? ok im confused. you dont agree with what chirstians believe so what do you believe? and please dont say your religion is Muslin because that doesnot tell me anything!!! just explain what you believe like you would lets say a jr high class of chirstians!!! ok? lol start from the begining and where you start to disagree with our bible. I know that muslins believe some part of the bible or so i thought... confused!!


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: The Holy Bible #144535 07/19/06 10:52 AM
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fair enough that is the best way.

I believe Jesus was a prophet and only a prophet. I do not believe he died and was resurected.
He may have been crucified but never died in the process.
He survived and was than raised to heaven by God.
He resides in heaven untill the time is right for God to send our mighty prophet back to us.

Understand?
Islam teaches that God sent many prophets to earth.
Each prophet was sent at a time the people had deviated away from the religion of monotheism (Which means to believe only in 1 God)

We can see this in the bible. Each prophet in the bible had to deal with his people who were in some way corrupt from the will of God.
Jesus came to re introduce the laws of Moses fully to Israel.
He never came to die for peoples sins.
The idea of him being the son of God was first introduced in the scriptures of Paul, as was the idea of a trinity amd the resurection. None of this came from Jesus' mouth.

People will often quote jesus saying. There is 3 in heaven that bear witniss.... This line does not exist in any bible written in the Greek language before the 15 century!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144536 07/19/06 06:17 PM
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That's funny but Jesus spoke repeatedly that He did in fact come to die for the sins of many. He did die, the Bible says so and He was resurrected as He said so. He was called the son of God by His Apostles. When He stopped the raging sea His Apostles fell to His feet and said, "Truly you are the son of God." Jesus Himself said He would die and be resurrected on the third day. He said all that before He was crucified. You are ignoring huge parts of the Bible if you cannot see this. Have you actually read the Bible or are you getting this second hand?

Last edited by emaster101; 07/19/06 06:19 PM.
Re: The Holy Bible #144537 07/19/06 10:56 PM
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Why is it you never give examples so we the people can see emaster?
Why didnt you answer the post I gave above when you asked me to show you even one contradiction?

heres another one for you in answer to your last post:

Quote:
His Apostles fell to His feet and said, "Truly you are the son of God."


Did they really emaster?

When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
(a) They worshipped him, saying, �Truly you are the Son of God� (Matthew 14:33)
(b) �They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were
hardened� (Mark 6:51-52)

You cannot keep telling us Jesus (pBUH) said this and that firstly without evidence and secondly without verifying your evidence as being authentic.

try answering the 10 contradictions I set you and ill give you some more. Theres bound to be a good explanation.
Spread the good news young sir! <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

There is only one divine scripture in the world. And without fail it is the Noble Quran. A book people have not been able to find errors in.
instead of saying that there must be... show me!


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144538 07/21/06 03:33 AM
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The reason no one finds errors in it is because no one who isn't a muslim and reads aramic has ever read the Quran. The Bible being much more accessable has been picked apart by those who want to disprove Christianity.

But the only things they have to pick at are tiny little details as your 10 points list showed.

Plus I'm not about to say anything bad about it. Who was that writer that wrote something negative about the quran and is now in hiding for his life?

Did you know that there are 39 non biblical ancient sources that document the life of Jesus that have more than 100 reported facts concerning Jesus' life, teachings, crucifixion and resurrection. Twenty four of these non biblical ancient sources cite the divinity of Jesus.

by the way if you want literary proof about this read The Verdict of History by Gary Habermas.

Last edited by Carennedy; 07/21/06 03:37 AM.
Re: The Holy Bible #144539 07/21/06 03:41 AM
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Here are some other sources for non biblical proof of Jesus & his divinity.

Books:
Jesus and Christina Origins outside the New Testement
The Historical Jesus
He Walked Amoung Us.

If you want a really good look at who Jesus really was read Philip Yancey's book - The Jesus I never Knew. It will open your eyes to what life was like then and how Jesus really looked to those of the time. It gave me a fuller knowledge of who Jesus really was and is.

Re: The Holy Bible #144540 07/21/06 03:59 AM
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Quote:
From K7 at the beginning of this forum: You see we believe (As do all Christians) that the bible has been tampered with. This is fact. Your priests admit it, your pope probably admits it and there is no grounds to defend it. Infact in History we actually know who some of the re-writers of the bible are. And these are historians that are Christian.


I can't get very far without reading a lie and having to respond with Truth. If this has already been answered please bear with me.

As for my priest... I don't have one. My minister decided to answer this question when Dan Brown decided to write a novel about it. In looking into history we find the following:

There are 5000 ancient manuscripts of the Gospels. There are thousands of fragments of the Gospels. These were found from Eygpt to Rome. The oldest one dates 55 years from the original. When compared they match 98.5% - the other 1.5% are grammerical or spelling differences, Not Doctrine.

Our Bible has not been messed with.

Want more proof there are 39 non biblical sources that tell the story about Jesus and have 100 instances of his life, miricles, death AND reserection.

The fact that he died on the cross is not disputed by ancient historians. We have more proof in ancient documents that Jesus lived and died then we do that Ceaser Augustus lived.

Re: The Holy Bible #144541 07/21/06 04:07 AM
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I am not staying up until midnight again to disprove everything K7 says about the Bible and Jesus..... but he is wrong and there is proof in the Bible and outside it.

If you really want the truth, the real truth and not K7's misguided rantings, which are not all truth.

Read the following:

The Bible -- The New Living Translation is a great contemporary translation that will be easy for you to read and understand.

Writers:

C. S. Lewis
Philip Yancey
Lee Strobel

If you really want to know the truth about God and are not just looking for an excuse to get yourself off the hook sorta speak, take the time to study. You spend time on the internet reading useless opinions from misguided miseducated souls who spout lies and pass them off as truths, maybe take the time to read the Truth.

Re: The Holy Bible #144542 07/21/06 04:56 AM
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Quote:
We believe he did not die on the cross. And biblically there is not much evidence to say he did die on the cross.


OK I maybe I am going to be up all night again. I can't stop thinking about all the lies being passed as educated truth.

Quote above. Well then why did the historians of the time, Josephus and Tacitus record that he did die?

Dr. Alexander Metherell MD Phd provides medical evidence in the death of Christ.

1) He was flogged "As the flogging continued, the lacerations would tear into the underlying skeletal muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh."
A third Century Historian described it as "the sufferer's veins were laid bare, and the very muscles, sinews, and bowels of the victim were open to exposure."

So there is a huge amount of blood loss. Historians are unaimous that Jesus survived this.

2) He was nailed to the Cross. The nails were driven into his wrists (considered part of the hand at the time) and they crushed the median nerve, the largest nerve going out the hand. His feet were also nailed, crushing those nerves.

To explain this pain Dr. Metherell provided this analogie. Take your funny bone, which is really the ulna nerve, and use a pair of pliers to crush it. That is the pain Jesus would have had. To describe the pain they made up a word for it - excruciating - it literally means "out of the cross".

When the cross was jarred into place his shoulders became dislocated.

3) He died by asphyxiation. In order to breath he'd have to push up with his feet so his diaphragm would be able to exhale and then relax again so it could inhale. Shallow breathing results in respiratory acidosis, carbon dioxide is dissolved in the blood as carbonic acid. This leads to an irregular heartbeat.

4) The lack of blood caused the heart rate to increase causing the heart membrane to collect fluid, this is called pericardial effusion, fluid would collect around the lungs, this is called pleural effusion. This is why when the guard pierced the side of Jesus water and blood would have come out.

How do I know that Nails were used to cruxify - in 1968 archaeologists in Jerusalem found remains of cruxified bodies and one still had the nail in his feet with part of the cross.

Why do I believe he was dead... Because the Roman soldiers knew their job and had seen enough dead bodies to know if one was dead or not. If they had brought down someone who wasn't dead, they faced death themselves.

I have a question for you now......

1) Do you really believe that someone that severly wounded without the emergency rooms of today, would have survived this?

2) Who do you know that would allow himself to go through this type of torture for a lie? Don't forget Jesus hadn't done anything wrong in the eyes of Rome, all he had to say was "I am not the son of God, I am not the Messiah, it was all a lie." -- but he didn't.... That is how I know he is God, no human would have done it.

Re: The Holy Bible #144543 07/21/06 05:05 AM
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Quote:
We believe he did not die on the cross. And biblically there is not much evidence to say he did die on the cross.
In the book atributed to Mathew we learn all the desciples ran away and left him.
We are told in the bible that Jesus's legs (PBUH) were not broken.


Have you Read the Gospel of John???????? John was the only aposile who didn't run. He was a witness, he stood there and watched as Jesus was hammered to the cross.

Last edited by Carennedy; 07/21/06 05:46 AM.
Re: The Holy Bible #144544 07/21/06 05:08 AM
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Quote:
When Mary Magdelene came to see Jesus (PBUH), she came supposedly to anoint him. Who anoints him after 3 days??? Which tradition which culture practices this in the world??


This was a large part of the culture. Anointing a body with spices was common practice, probably to help mask the oder.

Why did it take her 3 days? Jesus was cruxified on a Friday and Jews were not allowed to touch a dead body on the sabith so she had to wait until sun up on Sunday.

And where did you get that she jumped on him????

Re: The Holy Bible #144545 07/21/06 05:28 AM
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K7 -- Over and Over again you say that Bible doesn't say Jesus is God. You've been proved wrong so many times but keep stating it over and over.

But just so no one is confused by your lies:

I'm going to give you the verses - you can go look them up.

Matthew 12:17-21
Matthew 21:2-5
Matthew 1:20-23
Luke 2:46-47
Mark 1:9
Luke 3:21-22
Mark 1:10-11
Matthew 4:3-4
John 5:31
Mark 1:22
John 6:67-68
Mark 1:23
Luke 4:41
Matthew 16:13-17
Luke 9:18-20
John 3:31-35
1John 5:21-22
Mark 3:11
John 6:35
John 6:47
Luke 9:35
Matthew 17:5
John 12:45
Luke 11:31-32
Luke 12:35-40
Matthew 20:23
Luke 22:14-18
Luke 22:20
Mark 14:24
John 19:30
John 14:9
Matthe 23:20
John 14:15-16
John 16:7
John 17:5
Mark 14:35-36
Matthew 27:46
Matthew 27:51
Luke 23:45
Luke 24:27
Mark 16:19
Luke 24:50-53
Matthew 28:20
Revelation 1:13-14
Revelation 5:5-6

Re: The Holy Bible #144546 07/21/06 05:35 AM
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Quote:
K7 says: 4 different accounts... However your own Christian scholars will tell you that the 4 gospels were not actually written by the 4 disciples that they are attributed to.
We dont actually know who has written them! But we do know it is not actually likely to be the 4 desciples Mark, Luke, Matthew and John!


This is a lie. Maybe you should get your facts straight. I'm not going into why this is a lie again and repeating myself again. For someone who has studied the Bible you sure have a lot of false information. Did you study the Bible by reading the Bible or by reading what other people wrote about the Bible?

Re: The Holy Bible #144547 07/21/06 05:45 AM
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Quote:
k7 says These are the wrongdoers. we live side by side with the people of all religions.
You only have to look into Muslim history to see how justly we have ruled and how our people have co-inhabitted as we are still doing today.


Are you serious???? I'm not even going to honour this with evidence, I think everyone knows the evidence against this statement.

Re: The Holy Bible #144548 07/21/06 10:03 PM
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You cant judge Muslim rule in recent times my friend.
There hasnt been any.

Was it not the Muslims that ruled spain with justice? was it not the Muslims that allowed Jews and Christians to live without persectution in the ottoman empire?
Under the rule of Muslims did palestine not have peaceful times?
If you notice countries that the Muslims have ruled have not been forced to change language or religion.
Today ther reason why most of Africa speaks either french or English is because it was imposed on them.


In reference to your early claim of authenticating the bible, firstly Id like to thank you for the websites you gave links to in another post careneedy. Very good read but not entirely accurate.
I have a list of authors and scholars who are Christian that concede the fact that the bible has been altered many times.

I mean you only have to look at the preface of the 1952 revised standard version of the bible and it tells it in the bible!!!

Anyway... Im not gonna argue on these points anymore. Because no matter how much I write it is the same and the same goes for you.You see what you want to see and I see what I want to see. Lets pray that satan releases his grip on whoever of us is the arrogant.
Until than we can agree to disagree as they say.
Ill respect your choice of religion and God willing you'l respect mine.
Id like to invite readers to join me in the Islam forum. That is where ill be posting only from now on.

Ive learned something on your religion from yourselves and shared some things that I knew about it too.
maybe now you'l take the interest to learn something about mine and we can build healthy bridges.

There is a post on the authenticity of the Quran which I invite you all to.

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon you, and may Allah guide us to the straight path, like the ones who have earned his blessings, not like the ones who have angered Him or the ones who have strayed from the path of monotheism. Amen.

Ali - The servant of God
<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


"The best apology is the one given before the grief" The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Re: The Holy Bible #144549 07/22/06 12:41 AM
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Hey I didn't mean to chase you away, you can go on some more. It's fun having a healthy conversation.

As for political peace... history has shown us that no matter what religion there have been autrocities, lots of them. Even a religious state such as the Catholic Vatican has proved the Machiavellion saying that:

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I do want to mention that you need to be vary wary of which scholars you are reading. The Jesus Seminar claims to be Christian but they have anti-Christian views. As well, when in a head on debate with other Christian Scholars, like Dr. Gregory Boyd, they come out all beat up. They do not speak for the intellectual Christian community and their findings are flawed.

Re: The Holy Bible #144550 07/22/06 01:17 AM
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Shannon, what a tremendous amount of work you did! WOW!

Thank you for taking such time to look up everything -I'm still in the middle of going through the questions Kibrilis brought up, LOL!

But I must say this has been really good for me, because it has had me really digging in and studying in the Bible, instead of just reading over a few verses each day. So for that I have to thank Kibrilis as well. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: The Holy Bible #144551 07/22/06 01:21 AM
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I think Kibrilis was great. I mean I may not agree with him and I may know enough about the Bible and its history to know refute him. Too bad I chased him away.

I do want to note that I started in the Who Started Christianity Forum and by the time I had gotten through this one I was frustrated and more than a little angry.

By the way don't thank me. The Holy Spirit would not let me let it go. That's why I kept coming back over and over and over,,, kinda like the energizer bunny.

What I worried most about is seekers who would read his half truths and believe them as fact. I pray that those who are seeking and Christians themselves will find more truth than falsehoods.

I can't stress enough the importance of reading Lee Strobel. His books are great and you will learn so much on facts to defend the faith.

Re: The Holy Bible #144552 07/22/06 07:15 AM
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Not to take k7 side against my own religion but, if you read a book on a religion and the are of that faith wont they build up thier own faith and undermine others?

I have read chirstian books on wicca and other religians and they all seem to me in my oppion to add or subtract believes and not tell the whole story. but give plent of info about how evil there faith is and how we as chirstians should convert or stay away for them.

I would love to get my hands on a book about any religon that was wrote by a athist who studyed that relgion. i think if the person who reseached and studyed the religion and had no religion themselfes would have a clear cut fact based oppion!!!

its ez for me to look at chirstianty and say "this is the ABSULUTE TRUTH" because that is what i personaly believe and its hard for me to look at other religions and concerter that believe to be valid!

I do think that Every Religion has valid points and truth!!! but here again what i pick up as being valid and truth from another religion is STILL based in Chirstianity!!!

But how many athist out there study religon in and out to find what they believe and why? and the ones that do would they not be more likely to discreadit the religion just to prove there is no God?

Just some thing to think about!!!


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Re: The Holy Bible #144553 07/22/06 05:58 PM
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The books you want to read then Freebubbles are written by Lee Strobel.

He is a highly respected Journalist and former Atheist. His wife by way of a neighbour came to know God and converted to Christianity. This almost tore their marriage apart due to way he reacted to her new found faith, he was malicious and hurtful.

In order to prove her wrong and bring her back to the side of atheism he got out the bible and started interviewing scholars asking the hard questions and pushing until he couldn't push anymore.

What he found, was God. It really is amazing! His writing asks the hard questions then gives you the answers and then digs deeper to find more answers. I think you'd really enjoy learning what he found out.

Re: The Holy Bible #144554 07/25/06 12:37 AM
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Shannon I just want to thank you aswell for all the hard work you have put in.

The Bible is an amazing book and there are to many things in it written over 2000 years ago that are now comming true today... It is really mmaking me think.

I am reading a book at the moment called the final battle? ( perhaps you have heard of it?) a scarey read because its all true.

Re: The Holy Bible #144555 07/26/06 02:31 AM
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Lee strobel? is he the one who wrote A Case For Christ?
does he have any books on other religians?


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Re: The Holy Bible #144556 07/26/06 06:25 AM
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Lee Strobel did write A Case for Christ, its about his 2 year search for the truth. He may have some atheist stuff out their but I doubt it. He's a devout Christian and a minister now. He does ask a lot of the questions that many people have about the reliability of the Bible and Jesus.

If you have questions like why does God let bad people live? or does God care? or Is God silent? or where is God today? Then I'd suggest Philip Yancey, especially Where is God When it Hurts and Disappointment with God. You can read some of his articles on www.christianitytoday.com Just search out his name.

The Final Battle -- I don't think I've read that one. I did read one about a former Satanist who turned Christian and that was really scary because it shows how Satan works to attack us. Now I always ask God to surround me with angels to keep me safe from Satan's attacks.

Basically they were able to go out of body on purpose and attack your soul. There was one time when they went to attack someone and there were angles there to stop them.

It also talked about how easy it is to let demons into our souls and how many do it without even knowing it.

I wish I could remember the name of the book, something to do with a sword. I'll see if I can find the name, I'd love to read it again, it was oh my now I feel old, it was about 15 years ago that I read it, my junior year. The ironic thing is that my best friend and I had read it before we went to a fine arts symposium at simon fraser university. When everyone started the day with a chanting session we freaked out.

Re: The Holy Bible #144557 07/27/06 02:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 361
freebubbles2 Offline
Shark
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Shark
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 361
the sword and the cross blade? maybe? I believe that there are door that we open unwittingly and doors that God wants usto walk thourgh, but i dont give satin the power to attack me. satin can not MAKE us do anything nither can God!!! He gave us free wil with that said...we choice what we do or not do... satin canplant a seed and God can plant a seed. what we choose to water and grow is ours!!! Satin in my oppion, can take the bible in or out of context and plant a seed of hate, unbelieve misguide consept or what ever more eazyly then useing anything else for example, wife and child abusers use the bible to justifiy what they do!!! homophobics use it to justify hateing gays!!! and satin uses it to prevert the churches of the past present and future its fortold!!! we are told that the bible is a two edge sword. that does not mean that it cut us to fix to Gods benefit and to cut satin. i think it is a worning to us to be careful how we use it!!!if satin uses something as mondane as lets use tarot or another religon then we stand against it with arms and bibles drawn ready to fight but if its bibleical(or so we think) we wait or do nothing because it gives use pause because we arent sure...

i find books about satin and all his supposed powers....well they make me angery because they want me to feel helpless and fear satin and anything that the auther deems satinic were in truth I have a PWOERFUL AND PROTECTIVE GOD AND A BRAIN to THINK!!!! so anyways I am trying to find the book a Case for Chirst!!!


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: The Holy Bible #144558 09/25/06 04:39 AM
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Posts: 822
Carennedy Offline
Parakeet
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Parakeet
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 822
freebubbles did you find the book, the case for christ?

Satan has done a good job of deciving us and making himself out to be less of a threat then he is.

Who is Satan, what does the Bible say? He was the number one Angel in Heaven, the most beautiful. Due to this beauty he began to look at himself and not to God, this lead to him believing he was better than God.

The book of Job shows that he was still in Heaven during the time of the old testament. Jesus told his diciples upon his return that as he was coming back to life he saw Satan and his followers fall from Heaven.

For 2000 years Satan has roamed the earth and used the church, those in leadership roles, and everyday people to cast a bad light on Christianity and God. Many are decieved by the ultimate deceiver, they think they're eyes are open and that God won't deceive them but they are deceived because Satan, the lier, has mislead them.

To believe that Satan is not a threat, that he is some guy in a red suit on our shoulder is to open yourself up to him. He wants you to believe he's harmless and he's on your side, that it is God who deceives us by making all these rules.

A real Christian has an inner peace like no other. When you meet a true follower of God you will know that they are different just in their manner and actions.

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