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To AINTD:

You have implied that women's emotions are a negative thing while saying that men's emotions are acceptable. I am not sure where you are but in my experience, men are as likely to have emotional outbursts as women.

For an example, I know of far more men who seek anger managment help than women. Based on this, I could ask, which would you prefer...a man who might loose his temper and become destructive making governmental decisions or a woman who might cry with compassion or when hurt?

I would hope that anyone, be it man or woman who is in charge of a nation's fate would be a self disciplined individual.

Jesus ... I guess I'm starting to loose my temper as well ... Are you reading only every second word I posted? The word "gymnastics" went along with the word "artistic". I don't know the Cirque de Solei, sorry, the best circus is Russian, and they do have plenty of male gymnasts. But EVEN when they do something artistic in pair with a woman, it is the WOMAN who would bend and fly and do all those things, while it is the MAN who will support her. I'm not saying that it's the sex that determines the acceptability of a person in an office, it is the sex that determines the nature of a person.

I have also said that women' tears are not to be ashamed of. I said that true women' reaction of anger and similar emotions are far more dangerous. A woman will not cry when hurt, at least the one that is in politics or large scale business, she will deeply hate the one who did it to her, and won't miss the chance to take revenge.

You're just speaking as a true woman "No, no, no, you're just absolutely wrong! A woman is a soft creature, she may cry but she is far less offensive than a man." And we all know HOW women can HATE each other, don't we? Now, transfer this hate to the governmental level. Women are capable of much more destructive emotions than men and you'll lie if you say "No they are not!".

I'm not saying emotions are bad, I'm saying that a person with these emotions should not be given too much power. And the way the things are, there are only very few women overall in governments and they occupy the less dangerous posts, those I've mentioned. This is just natural.

You know what? - I'm somehow sure, if we were talking right now looking into the eyes, and if you had some kind of power over me, you would use it the most devastating way. Sorry, but that's the impression you gave me. If you were a police officer of some kind, you'd send me to jail for "discriminating propaganda" or something alike. You cannot ahold of yourself and you still think it is right to have women occupying the key posts?

Does anyone of you watch the movies made in your own country by your own citizens? I certainly do. Haven't you ever noticed what women are capable of? And it's not the invention of the author, you can't invent something without ever seeing it. There is no smoke without fire.

The very fact that you wish not to admit that women' emotions can be uncontrolable (comparing to men') says it all.

Now, having read all this, you'd say what a ******************** (whatever goes in there) ... and am still saying that women are just great, without them the world would be destroyed. They do keep things running but on different level. Why is it that you want into government so badly? Is it hurting the self-esteem? Well, it should not! You role is as important as men', you want to be in the government? You want to contol people? I don't understand it. Nobody is disriminating you, you're not a slave, you're paid for the job you do, you have the same rights to live, walk, breathe and whatever as men. In the end, things are self controled, and there is no tension in the world regarding this issue. That means, that generally, everyone's happy, but when someone mentions that there are such places where women should not be, then of course you wind up.

I do not consider myself smart ... it's the other way round in fact ... I must be a real idiot having brought up this topic ... in a forum created by women. I was very naive, I guess. My apologies.

I have only seen previews of Cirque de Solei, you will have to ask whoever posted about it for more info. I assume that she was saying the same thing I was, men sometimes do the same moves as the women in any form of gymnastics here in the US and I assume there are other countries.

I never said that women's emotions were controllable. Women are no less and no more in control than men. Perhaps you should try watching more action flicks or sports if you wish to see men in their emotional stages. Then compare those and see if men truly have the advantage.

You tell me to get a hold of myself yet I have not lost control. To me this is an important discussion because I see issues all the time arising from issues based on gender differences.

" you have the same rights to live, walk, breathe and whatever as men." This has been my point to you all along. Many of your words do suggest it should be otherwise. Many men would not stand for someone suggesting they were inferior or should not be allowed to be involved in poloitics or business, why should a woman stand for it?

Hey AINTD, you sound like a really cute, fiesty, young guy. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's clear from your conversation that you are not married. And I suggest, if you ever do get married, you may shortly have to change your tune about women - that is if you want to stay married. So you may want to listen and learn a thing or two from the ladies in this forum.

I'm wondering how you ever managed to be so behind the times in relation to women. Don't you realize that we won the right to vote in the U.S. in 1920? :rolleyes: Therefore, it doesn't much matter what you think we should or shouldn't be doing, because we're just going to go ahead and do what we want anyway!

Maybe you're too young to have noticed all of the changes that have taken place in all aspects of society over the years, but I've seen rapid movement in just the past 20 to 30 years, on the part of women. Especially when you consider the fact that 80 years ago we weren't even allowed to own property. Wow! Have things ever changed!

Back in what you might have considered the good old days, women were controlled by men's brute force (those bone breaking, flesh tearing weight lifters you speak of), but, Honey Pie, those days are gone forever!!! And there's not a darned thing you can do about it, so you might as well learn to accept it, or I predict a very unhappy future for you. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Women's lack of past fame for noteworthy accomplishments (not counting all of the unacknowledged power behind the throne) is totally understandable. We had no control over our bodies, our children or any property. Besides, it was men who were writting all of the history books.

It's true that men and women are physically different.(I won't ask you for details about that observation.) <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Men have a higher degree of muscle and are physically stronger. Now that made a huge difference in the days of the Vikings. But you know what? It doesn't matter any more!

What counts these days are smarts. So, for the first time in our existence, women and men are on an equal footing. And, boy have we moved forward at a rapid pace in just 80 years. It's a great and exciting time to be a women!

But then you may not think I'm a "real woman" <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> since I drive a Land Crusher (Cruiser in some circles) and I also lift weights. (I must digress here and say that, from a health standpoint, it's not too smart for a man or a woman to practice bone breaking, flesh tearing weight lifting.) However, like I said earlier, it doesn't much matter what you think (or what planet you or I are from).

Just look around you, AINTD. Women are infiltrating every single part of what used to be exclusively a man's world. (I remember the day my father's men's club opened up to women.) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, move over, Sweet Boy, her come the "girls." And, we will do whatever we damn well please - whether you like it or not! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Thanks, Jessica, for the invitation to play. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

well, not the nicest of remarks, but I just have to add that my husband just said he's glad that there is "at least one man stupider than he is." Oh, and he "hopes and prays that you do NOT have children". <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay, one more thing then I'm gonna stop... You say that an author can't invent something that they've never seen... I hate to prove you wrong (again) but I am an artist, and I spend 90% of my time inventing things that I haven't seen. Sorry, that arguement does not fly. By the way, have you ever seen a man in a jelous (sorry about the spelling) rage who kills his wife? Or the man who killed a 6 year old baby, simply because he was ANGRY that his ex-wife was moving on with her life? Both sexes are capable of atrocities. Don't just claim that women are.

So many replies from all grown up people ... I'm actually honored.

First thing is first ... I do have girl-friend and a steady relationship for over than 2 years. In many arguments that do arise, she is the first to loose her temper and only later she'd say "OK, I admit, I wasn't quite right. I guess I overreacted.", but at the moment of discussion she'd be just like all of you. And we get along quite happily, without any tensions.

You also must have some serious lack of self-esteem if you wish to infiltrate every single area which before was a "man-only" ... I would really like to see the person (be that man or woman) who has introduced the female weightlifting.

This stance "Men apart! Women are coming!" is not really friendly and sane, is it? And yes, I have noticed that women have taken over some previously unallowed positions. That is not really the point of the discussion. I'm at no point said that the way the things were ... say a century ago, were good and fair. You're extracting way more from my words than there really is in them. I say "1" and you'll say "2, 3 and 4", not very nice way of having a discussion.

That hubby remark ... he may still consider himself the stupides on earth in his own weight class, since he's older, I'm not going to take that away from him.

And you know what ... I now see things the other way round ... if 100 years ago it were men who had been oppressing women, now it's the opposite. Whatever you say or do, a woman can always say "Oh, you're a macho! You don't like and respect women! What a bad person you are! Shame on you! I hope you'll never have children!". We see a lot of families in which husbands are like door mats, always under the heel of a woman (I wonder if it's your case ... very developed in USA judging from the movies) ... Is that right?

I do not need to prove anything since everything I've said, has already been proved by the current world situation. There are no women where they should not be (with rare exceptions).

To the artist girl - NO YOU CAN NOT invent something completely new. It was Platon I think who demonstrated it. You can either invent something directly deriving from a seen object. Or, you can invent something indirectly, which doesn't exist, but which will be formed by existing things. I think his example was the one of "New Jerusalem" ... a place that did not exist, but he imagined it as a place with marble columns, golden walls and things alike. You see ... "marble" ... "columns" ... "walls" ... "gold" ... These things do exist. Take our beloved FF game for example. It is obvious that they wanted to make a fantasy world, but they cannot make something really unseen and new. They just can't. It still has plenty of elements from the real world. So, do not tell me, that you're inventing each and every day something new. You'd be world wide famous if it was true.

I do not know whether you read what you write. But your attitude is rather hostile. I have exacty the same right to say whatever pleases me as you do, but somehow I avoid making personal remarks. Women will never be as men and men will never be as women. The physical differences are the very minor ones that exist in between the two. You know which adjective can be applied to many women ... once again judging from the movies ... "evil". Men rarely are evil ... they may be dumb, weak, arrogant even cruel, but not evil. Only god knows what may happen in a woman's heart when she sees that her best friend has something new and better than she has ... on this one I do have experience.

One more thing ... men always forgive women ... and they would say "Of course honey, you're right.", in order to keep the peace, because it is women who are easily inflamable.

As for the history ... we can't really debate on that, can we? ... I have plenty of facts of men' achievements, and a bunch of women'. There were quite a few female talented governers in the past. Take Spain or Russia as an example. This doesn't really matter, we're not discussing the merits of both genders.

To sum it all up a bit. I'll dearly love my future wife (no matter what you, all kind women, say), treat her with respect and never limit her liberty. I'm actually pretty sure that it will be her who'll be managing the money and expences. I also do have respect for all other women. But I will not change my posture, that there is no place in certain areas for ordinary women (ordinary means: the usual spirit, bad temper control, etc.).

To AINTD yet again:

Your comment, "Men, usually are just not capable of uncontrollabe bursts of anger or eny other emotion." stood out as most ridiculous. What facts do you have to come to this conclusion? Men are as emotional as women as I said before. You seem to excuse the emotions of men though.

Facts that lend proof that men are no better at handling emotions:

"Women are five times more likely than men to be victims of intimate partner violence.." According to reported incidents more men than women loose control and abuse their partners.
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Ladies, I guess it is the right point to end this stupid discussion and for me to shut up. You haven't understood anything I said and I haven't understood anything you said. That just shows how different we are. I may be wrong in not trusting women, but way too many examples which support this posture. You must be completely cynic if you say that men and women are psychologically and emotioanlly equal (and that comes out of your words unless I'm missing something important). So, believe whatever you want to believe and let me do the same. My deepsest opologies to all involved and any who might have got offended.

(The "facts" you've mentioned in the last reply by the way, only confirmed that you do not understand what I'm talking about ...)

Though I have been wished the "never will be married" and the "never will have children" and predicted a "sad end" and even have in been proclaimed the most stupid man on earth, I wish all of you to be good mothers and good wives. I would still insist on staying away from politics, but you wouldn't listen to, would you ...

Who was wrong and who was right ...
That shall we know in near sight ...
There is not much to tell ...
Be good, be well and farewell ...

(Lame, I know ... whatever ...)

You're so right, AINTD. It's time to agree to disagree. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You were very brave to have stuck with us for so long. Thank you.

It's always a tough conversation when neither side is the least bit interested in changing their position <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> - which was the case here. You never can tell, maybe we all got some unknown value out of the time we spent discussing this issue.

One last thing. I would like to point out that dating <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and being married <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> are two entirely different ballgames. Hopefully you and your future spouse will be more committed to listening to each other and working towards a mutual understanding than you and we were in this forum. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best of luck and thanks again. You're a good sport and we appreciate your time, your passionate point of view and your poetry.