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#138353 06/27/02 09:48 PM
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Today the Supreme Court ruled that parents have the right to use school vouchers to select their child's school if real choice is present.

How do you think this will effect schools, school libraries, and the home schooling movement?


Professor Harold Hill
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#138354 06/28/02 06:18 PM
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I don't think it is a good idea at all. Not everyone can afford to send their child to a private school and the vouchers will be hurting (only my opinion) allready "poor" schools. Please don't get the wrong opinion of me and I am an American but I do not understand how we continually do very damaging things to the children of this country. I see commercials all the time "Put children first" but I really don't see the "government" doing that.

#138355 06/28/02 06:31 PM
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The effect of vouchers on truly under funded schools is a concern. Another question is should their be a mandate for other public schools to accept the vouchers and students if they have room?


Professor Harold Hill
#138356 06/30/02 01:57 AM
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I know I am going to stick my foot right in my mouth here but I think they should split all the money EQUALLY amongst ALL schools, that way each child (poor or rich) can get the same opportunities for education. Then if parents want to get private lessons for other educational purposes they can do that for after school.

#138357 07/01/02 06:48 PM
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Oooh, you like to live dangerously. Equity funding in education is a controversial topic. In some states it's easier to split all the funds collected from homeowners than properly tax "comercial land" in underfunded locations.

I went to an underfunded high school. Our theater department had to use a shop room for productions. In the same city another high school had a REAL theater with an orchastra pit that could be raised and lowered, and a section of the stage that could turn.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox before I start.


Professor Harold Hill
#138358 08/06/02 01:44 AM
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Quote:
they should split all the money EQUALLY amongst ALL schools
I have to agree. Where I live we have this program called KERA. It's the Kentucky Education Reform Act. Schools get money based on performance. Umm...hello...does anyone else see the problem with this one? <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Of course the schools in the worst parts of town continually score the lowest, therefore they get less money.

We have one school that has continually done so poor for three years in a row that parents now have the option to send their children to a different school. All transportation must be covered by the school budget of the school they are leaving. Well, duh, they are leaving because the school is doing so bad because they do not get enough funding.

This particular school has a 98 percentile of free or reduced meals. This gives you an idea of how critical the situation in their neighborhood is.

I don't see vouchers as a saving grace either. I can guarantee you that these parents are not happy with the current situation at their school but offering them vouchers certainly won't help the children who are left at this public school. It also puts more of a strain on these parents in my opinion because they must meet the dress code rules and supply lists of the more prestigious schools.

Maybe I'm way off base but I don't think vouchers are the answer. They need to quit spending money needlessly and put it where it's needed - Education. It seems every year, education budgets are slashed all over the US.

#138359 08/06/02 10:15 AM
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Wait, wait...The students who don't perform well on the science tests because their school cannot afford for them to every touch lab experiments get LESS money!? The library with encyclopedias from the 1970s gets LESS money!? This makes no sense.


Professor Harold Hill
#138360 08/08/02 05:38 PM
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THAT MAKES LOTS OF SENSE!!!!

My husband got tired of hitting our heads against a wall trying to work with our public schools. Teachers and Principals that never returned phone calls. Teachers who expected our daughter to come in knowing the subject so that they didn't have to teach. The teachers who expected our LD daughter to teach herself.

We don't have years to wait for these schools to get their act together. I work and my husband works two jobs so we can send our daughters to Catholic school. I would love to get back some of our tax money to pay the school that teaches our daughters. Maybe my husband could quit his second job.

#138361 08/08/02 07:46 PM
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Hmmmm.....where we are - southwest TN - having vouchers will allow me to choose a better quality of education. Our public schools, though acceptable as far as education standards go, do not *want* (per the Director of the Board of Education) to exceed the upper level standards. They have no desire to have advanced children excel or work with disabled children to reach a potential they may not have known they had.

Our public school system wants only to meet and, possibly, barely exceed the standards - with that they are satisfied. I AM NOT. I would prefer to have my son go to a school that stretches and gives his brain a workout.

I know my problem is a regional/state concern. I understand that I can work to change the Board of Education - however, the officials have been elected and are in office for another 4 years. By then, my son will be ready for high school! For me, for my area, for my son - I think vouchers are good.

Kitty
(Getting down off her soapbox and taking a long drink of.....water!! LOL)


~*~KATE~*~
#138362 08/08/02 11:30 PM
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You've got the gist of it Paula. The lowest performing schools get the least amount of money. In fact they go one step further and award money directly to the teachers who have excellent overall class scores.

I saw on CNN just today that in a recent poll 51% of those polled approve of vouchers as long as it's not funded by higher taxes. I would say that this is where I fall.

However, I honestly think that if our government officials would quit wasting money on frivilous stuff there would be enough money to not only fund the vouchers, but to also provide equal amounts of money in decent amounts to public schools.

I understand many parents desire to have their children attend a better school. In Caring Parents case it would help ease the burden of paying for private school, which became necessary because of a lack of help from the public school system. In Kitty's case, which I've heard of before in TN, it might spur the public school system there to actually do a better job.

In our KERA they adopted the Portfolio system which has been a pretty good improvement. My kids have been able to keep track of their writing and reading skills since day one of Kindergarten. It has also enabled the teachers to more quickly identify problem areas. If more parents had the ability to make a choice it might spur more school systems to adopt better performing programs and higher standards.

The only problem is the possibility of higher taxes. If my taxes get any higher I won't be able to afford to pay them.

LOL My hubby just stopped and I explained what the discussion was all about. He asked if I wanted his opinion. Being the good wife I said "sure". He said that if it enables a child to be able to go to a private school, he's all for it.

#138363 08/08/02 11:31 PM
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<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Kitty just slide that soap box over here. We have had many frustrations dealing with schools. Both private and public. We had a horrible experience in Pennsylvania with our Catholic school. When we moved to Alabama we put our son in an extremely good public elementary school. We were extremely pleased. Our youngest son started in the same school. For various reasons, including my employment at our parish school, we opted to move our youngest to our Catholic parish school. It was not an easy decision. We were fortunate, because we witnessed a steady decline over the past decade in the public school system.
My oldest son, who does not like math, was allowed to fail Algebra II because, in the words of his teacher, "He just sits quietly in the back and reads his literature book." Excuse me! Because he wasn't a disruption it was easier to let him fail than engage and teach him. We hired a tutor who called and called the teacher. We called and called the teacher. She wouldn't return any phone calls. During the summer he retook the class in another school and earned an 84.
There are pervasive problems with our public school system. In my diocesan system there is no tenure. This protects both the teacher and the students. If you are not re-hired during your first three years there has to be documented reasons. I know an excellent teacher in the public system who was pinkslipped because it was the end of her third year. No explanation is necessary. It's cheaper for the school system to hire new teachers every three years. On the other hand we can get rid of bad teachers.
Kitty, can I have a glass of water?


Professor Harold Hill
#138364 08/09/02 02:37 PM
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Here you go, Paula. (Kitty passes a tall glass of cool water to Paula...) <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As an aside, I have been using an online teaching/testing method with my son since Kindergarten to help him with homework, provide other work materials when he gets bored at school and gauge his state, regional and national standing among other elementary students in his age/grade.

While I don't show it all to him, it keeps me aware of what's being taught at different grade levels and where my sons strengths and weaknesses are. This software also has placement testing, date/time logs and can be used as a homeschool tool almost exclusively. They also have a 7-day FREE trial! You might want to try the Free trial and have your child take the placement tests, just to see where they are if you are curious.

Kitty

http://www.homeschool.com/childu/default.asp


~*~KATE~*~
#138365 08/10/02 01:23 AM
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Thanks. I'll check out the link.

I think part of my frustration has been as the mother of a son with ADD. No ADHD, but ADD. Because he never bounced off the walls he didn't cause enough of a disruption to demand the teachers' attention. He's harder to teacher because he needs to be engaged and active in his learning.

Part of my belief in school vouchers is that not all schools are appropriate for all children. We need to be able to have our children attend the schools that will best educate THEM.


Professor Harold Hill
#138366 08/10/02 08:47 PM
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Paula another part of the problem is that so many schools don't pay any attention to the different ways children learn. Some kids are more audio and hands on while others are video, etc.

My biggest concern for my area is that some of our poorest performing schools will really suffer the most. We have magnet schools that parents are literally doing whatever they have to in order for their kids to attend. The really bad part is that those schools tend to be in the richest neigborhoods. Those are the schools with the most that score the highest, have an abundance of parent volunteers and therefore get the most money.

My concern is that the vouchers go to children who honestly need them. Parents who are working two and three jobs to pay for private education, children from the poorest neighborhoods and kids who have learning difficulties.

#138367 08/11/02 07:30 PM
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Cheryl,
You have hit on a major problem in education, private and public. Teachers go to wonderful workshops that discuss and demonstrate how to teach to different learning styles. Then the teachers return to the classroom only to teach the same way they always have. Most teachers teach in their own learning style.

In my own classes in the library some parent volunteers have thought I was very strange. I READ all the written instructions with the students. We then answer the first one or two questions together. I try to explain that I'm working to both auditory and visual learners needs. On other occasions students are physically going about the library on scavenger hunts, shelving books, etc.


Professor Harold Hill
#138368 08/12/02 12:57 AM
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Paula that is so wonderful that you take the time to provide instruction to all learning styles. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So many teachers do not do it.

You're right that teachers go to workshops and learn about the different learning styles but then don't put what they learn into practice. They are even beginning to teach learning styles to Preschool teachers of the younger age groups.

My son has struggled since getting a teacher in first grade who doesn't deserve to be teaching. She was so awful. She left bruises on my son's arm from dragging him around. My Pediatrician insisted that he be removed from her class that very day. Thus my first stint in homeschooling because I couldn't get any help through the school system.

However, this past year he got a teacher who was absolutely amazing. She has a lot of background in psychology as well as education. She noticed that my son struggles with a few things. She at first thought he might be ADD, but after working with him for a little while she realized that he's simply been allowed to "not perform" for so long that it became the norm for him. The teachers all had a meeting and developed a plan to work with him. He had a bumpy year but came home with the best grades I've seen on his report card since Kindergarten. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't mind vouchers, in fact I think for the right children they are best thing since bread. I'm just concerned that they won't go to children who really need them. Of course, I'm basing that on what I have watched in our system. I'm just opposed to a child whose family earns six figures a year getting a voucher. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

#138369 08/14/02 09:31 PM
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It's great that your son has a teacher who can inspire him and help him to learn.

I have no problem with a salary cap. To be honest that would effect us. I just want other families to have the educational options that we have.


Professor Harold Hill
#138370 08/15/02 12:34 AM
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You are WAY lucky that you found a teacher who helped your son out of his "not performing" niche. My husbands youngest brother was told that he was retarded, then that he was "slow" etc etc, now he's 22 and he can't get any help, because they ran tests, found that his intelligence level was low, but mostly from lack of schooling, in all other ways he was FINE. (I've been telling them that for years... ahh, to be able to say I told you so hehe) Anyway, he's been in special ed for so long (and they haven't taught him anything) that he has NO skills, not even social skills! It's become a burden on our family, because he is not capable of taking care of himself, and since he's not really retarded, or anything else, there are no assistance programs for us. And it's all because he was told that he was slow. sheesh.

#138371 08/21/02 01:06 AM
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This is a major problem in schools. Students are boxed into expectations.

My son, who is now at college, was taking a study skills course these past few weeks. Remember, this is the high school student who flunked algebra II. He did so well in the math section the teacher is recommending that he skip college algebra and go either to trig or statistics. He obviously had the ability to learn. He just didn't have a high school teacher willing to teach.


Professor Harold Hill
#138372 08/21/02 11:24 AM
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I think people underestimate the teacher's role in education. My kids went to schools where most of the kids were rich, and they went to schools where half the kids were homeless. Funding was all over the place. But invariably, it was the teacher who mattered. When they had good teacher they learned, and when they had a bad teacher, they didn't. I'm not sure how I feel about vouchers, but I don't think children ought to have to stay in any school that isn't working for them personally. Of course, I solved that issue by eventually homeschooling <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now if the teacher is bad, it's my own fault.

#138373 02/03/06 01:22 PM
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Going forward

It is a matter of perspective and perception. The effect of not continuing to look for innovate ways to correct the ills of public education will be the demise of the United States (US). We have loss and will continue to lose a significant comparative advantage to compete as global leader in innovation and agility. It is our pasted ability to orchestrate through public education to create individuals who gave thought of how to impact the factors of production. There is and continues to clearly be two educational system in the US. Going forward�information once understood and use by college graduates will be use by the average individual in their everyday lives.
The US continues to lag behind in the number of individuals proficient in Science, Mathematics, and Technology. The future frontier demands a nimble vision of extraordinary complexity that uncovers vast opportunities to sustain mankind�not just humans.

Not enough of the passionate greatest minds go to the low wealth areas in the US to teach and inspire the students who live in these places. Public education was designed/created to be the catalyst, the frontier for this to happen�right. The shift of thinking is a key factor in understanding and acceptance that every citizens has value to be the next greatest mind we�ve ever known. Somehow that never crosses the minds of the socially irresponsible.

As a whole public education is not effectively producing and utilizing its schools, and school libraries. Money gets wasted costs fluctuates, but still lost is the marginal costs that does equal and/or equate to a marginally benefit that reflective a balance and healthy society. There is a direct relationship between the costs of an unhealthy society. The high and rising costs of social ills are economic and emotional distractions to society as a whole. Stealing away valuable resources and creating spiraling pools of trapped capital�mainly human resources.

In relation to human productivity, fifty percent of any number is not an effective result when looking at the low-performing and non-performing schools. In many instances, school districts are only graduating 20% and 30% of ninth graders who are not 21st Century ready, basically this is a state of non-performing. If placed in the right environment many more would be ready to critically analyze, advocate and take action to find their passion to thrive as an individual. Sadly, many students leave public education unable to read and write at 12th grade level.

The home schooling movement grows out of necessity and the continuous need for parents to exert significance influence of their belief and expectation of an education for their own children.
They do not pretend to know all the answers, but spend a lot of time getting the fundamentals of learning for their children. Many home schooled Americans matriculate into the mainstream as competitive and prepared citizens. The exposure to social ills is lost to many students in the public education setting. Vouchers may not and cannot be the total answer to correcting public education, but honestly it�s a start to realizing we need to keep looking at ways to change the current trajectory of public education. Hey, we can do better across the board.

CS612 #406953 04/14/08 08:58 PM
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You're correct, there is no one easy answer.

Each day in the public library more and more families come in looking for materials for homeschooling. Why? Because they are tired of their children not being taught.

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I don't mind vouchers, in fact I think for the right children they are best thing since bread. [url=http://www.jolinya.com]jolinya[/url]

jolinya #556622 10/15/09 10:30 PM
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I'm amazed that school systems will refuse to test for LDs such as dyslexia. I have a friend whose son has dyslexia, but the school system refuses to test. Since there is no diagnosis they don't have to provide services.

Her son was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to a school for dyslexics. They could never afford the tuition. What is the solution without the scholarship? Let her son fail in public school? Try and homeschool?

With vouchers she would have the opportunity to send her son to the school that will teach him.

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