BellaOnline Forums Travel and Culture Polish Culture Re: Polish freedom of speech

IMO the Pope is too valuable for Poland to be ridiculed. I'd deport Jerzy Urban to Turkmenistan. I'd let him try to ridicule the Turkmen President.

Wow! With that kind of logic i suppose 20 to 30% of Americans would get deported to Turkmenistan. ( wherever the hell that is ).Besides, with laws that would deport commentators ( ridiclers or not ) to Turkmenistan, then i suppose a good deal of us should live there. ( Does anyone know where one can get a Turkmen Presidential campaign button? )

Carl - Does that mean the Pope should enjoy certain "protections" that otherwise would not be afforded in Polish society? Does that mean the Pope's good image SHOULD be protected by law in the Polish press?

Turmenistan:
http://www.chaihana.com/

Masongeneral, here's a lesson for you.

1. Turkmenistan is a former Soviet republic located in Central Asia. It borders Afghanistan.

2. Turkmenistan is a classic example of a dictatorship with a strong cult of personality. The Turkmen leader has done some very bizarre thinsg, such as redesign the calendar to suit his whims. He has absolute power in the country, and probably will until his death, if not even after.

Яга -

Фамилия Урбан не случайно в твоей семье? Или такая фамилия часто встречается в Польше?

Related somehow, at Bush's inauguration, a man that booed too loudly at him was arrested, spent the night in jail, and got a fine of $25.

LOL! I would have booed so loudly my fine would have been much higher than just $25!

Thats it. That guy who booed too loudly at Bush's inaguration should be deported to Turkmenistan. Serves him right! By the way Eric whats the weather like in Turkmenistan this time of the year? Its got to be better than Albany NY. Maybe if i ridicule Bush. Oh never mind!

In Turkmenistan (citizens are part Turkish & part Mongolian), you get the Chinese water torture on your head & cut up down below (LOL).

Freedom of speech hasbeen curtailed throughout the Eu, just ask Bridget Bardot. Try to say something bad about the EU in any of the countries that belong to it and you may wind up in jail. Many forms of speech are banned in Germany and France. In other EU countries certain forms of speech are forbidden. LOL <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

nope, Bob S., nope. We have lost our freedom of speech. Not France.

An article appearing in the Paris newspaper Le Figaro reported that a rap group called Minist�re amer (Bitter Ministry) is urging its fans to kill policemen. One of their lyrics says: "There will be no peace unless the [police] rest in peace." "On our record," declared the spokesman of the group, "we tell them to burn down the police station and sacrifice the [police]. What could be more normal?" No action has been taken against the rap group.

get with the program and get current. Bardot is ancient.

Here is the weather forecast for Ashkhabad - the capital city of Turkmenistan (Turkmenia). We think of Ashkhabad as being southerly, but even they can have a taste of winter down south! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

25 January: Rain, +3�C (+37�F)
26 January: Snow, -2�C (+28�F)
27 January: Sunny, -1�C (+30�F)
28 January: Partly cloudy, +2�C (+35�F)
29 January: Showers, +5�C (+41�F)
30 January: Rain, +8�C (+46�F)
31 January: Rain, +13�C (+55�F)

Source: http://meteo.infospace.ru/win/cities_sng/html/r_index.ssi

I've read Urban's magazine a few times when I've been in Poland - quite amusing. he's a bit of a dickhead but that's not something he should be punished for.

so he made fun of the pope - big deal. it seems that in Poland there's freedom of speech unless you're criticising the church. I can't imagine anyone being prosecuted in this way in the UK, and as the article says it's against the EU's guarantees of freedom of expression that Poland signed up to when it joined the EU.

very silly....

I'm surprised they didn't detain him in guantanamo bay for such a treasonous act....

btw - have presidential assassinations gone out of fashion in the land of the trigger happy fat people? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

normally you can count on at least one assassination attempt per decade - but nobody's tried to shoot the prez for 20 years now!

(hint)

Mason,

there is a difference betweeen a critique and vulgarity and obscenity.
Urban's newspaper is low, very low, it appease the lowest instincts of the people. It is a mixture of sex and critique of everything which is not connected with hist communistic party. He is an ex-communist.

So, his article about the pope was very low. It was published just before the pope's pilgrimage to Poland. The title of the article was :
"Mobil Sado-macho" - from the text of the article it is clear that this "mobil sado-macho" is the pope.

He called the pope "Brezniev's of Vatican" and the "ancient god". So this was not a critique, but many vulgarisms and disrespect towards the pope.

I wonder whether the EU would react similarly if somebody would be critize because of its critique of gays? It seems that the critique of the church according to EU is OK but the critique of gays is inmoral!

Here is the article of Urban in Polish, please read it if you can:
http://www.nie.com.pl/main.php?dzial=akt&id=719

and see the pictures

Jaga. If anyone in the EU critizes gays, Arabs or Moslems they will be in deep trouble. That type of speech is politically incorrect according to the EU. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

More translation:

***Dziadunio Karol Wojty&#322;a na&#322;ogowo spala mn�stwo benzyny lotniczej, &#380;eby w r�&#380;nych krajach mamrota&#263; o mi&#322;o&#347;ci bli&#378;niego, demonstrowa&#263; za&#347; mi&#322;o&#347;&#263; w&#322;asn&#261;. Zaspokajaj&#261; j&#261; ho&#322;dy milion�w ju&#380; teraz pochlebczo wyolbrzymianych przez polsk&#261; pras&#281;.***

Grandpa Karol Wojtyla burnst airplane gazoline as an addict, just to be able to mumble about the love of the neighbor and to demonstrate his own self-love. This is satisfied by the homage of millions, exaggerated adulatorily by the Polish press.


WHO NEEDS MORE TRANSLATION?

What about politically incorrect speech?

Please, check another fragment from Urban's which is politically incorrect. Even liberals do not like politcially incorrect speech:

***Witaj&#261;c s&#281;dziwego bo&#380;ka wci&#261;&#380; gdzie&#347; jacy&#347; &#380;�&#322;ci i &#347;niadzi klaszcz&#261;, skacz&#261;, ta&#324;cz&#261; w telewizorze. Wkr�tce jednak ekrany TV zajm&#261; zbli&#380;enia polskich dziewic zalanych &#322;zami szcz&#281;&#347;cia poni&#380;ej blond grzywek.***

Welcoming the ancient idol (god-idol) - some yellow or dark are always somewhere applauding, jumping or dancing in TV set. Soon the screens of Polish TV sets would be filled with the close view (can be translated in Polish as the "intercourse" = "zblizenie") of Polish virgins covered with tears of happiness under their blond forelocks.

Jaga - please provide an example of somebody in Poland (or anywhere else in the EU) being prosecuted for writing an article that makes fun of gays.

I've never heard of such a case. have you?

so why should somebody who writes an article that makes fun of the pope be prosecuted?

urban's magazine is vulgar and he is an ex-communist - so what? is anybody forcing you to read what he writes?

making it illegal to make fun of the pope is 100% wrong - and if you believe in freedom of speech you should accept that.

if you don't like it ignore it - you are free to do so.

Bob, maybe I am against the war with Iraq, but I am not for the European liberals...

Here is another fragment from Urban:

***"Kochany staruszku! Po&#322;�&#380; si&#281; do &#322;�&#380;ka. Przykryj ko&#322;derk&#261;. Poczytaj sobie Katarzyn&#281; Grochol&#281; albo jaki&#347; lekki krymina&#322;. Po&#263;paj kawiorku, pocmoktaj melb&#281;, mniam, mniam. Pu&#347;&#263; se na wideo "Dzie&#324; &#347;wira" � u&#347;miejesz si&#281; zacnie. Pod&#322;ub sobie w nosie albo mi&#281;dzy palcami u n�g, co tam lubisz***

Dear old man! Go to the bed. Cover yourself with the quilt. Read Katarzyna Grochola or another light criminal story. Sift mebla, yammy, yammy. Watch on video "Day of the fool" - you would laugh nicely. Dig in your nose or between the toes, whatever you like".

Raytan,

the priest in Germany was persecuted because he denied gays to get married in his church!

Here is the last example:

***Wyrzu&#263; te starcze &#347;rodki dopingowe, kt�rymi Ci&#281; szpikuj&#261; jak byczk�w hodowanych na olimpiad&#281;, &#380;eby&#347; m�g&#322; przez godzin&#281; rusza&#263; nog&#261; i mniej trz&#261;&#347;&#263; r&#281;k&#261;. Truj&#261; Ci&#281; przecie&#380; okrutnie i jeste&#347; po tym podw�jny
kape&#263;. Nie r�b widowiska z ludzkiej agonii, pow&#347;ci&#261;gnij wi&#281;c ch&#281;tk&#281;, &#380;eby pa&#347;&#263; na stanowisku. Choruj z godno&#347;ci&#261;, gasn&#261;cy starcze, albo ko&#324;cz wa&#347;&#263;, wstydu oszcz&#281;d&#378;.***

Throw away these old men's drugs, which they give you like for the bulls trained to the olympic games, so that you can move your leg for one hour and do not shake your hand that much.

They poison you terribly and you are the double dummy after that. Do not do a spectacle from the human agony, restrict your willingness to be knocked down on the stand. Be ill with dignity, extinquishing old man, or finish, save the shame.

that's a different issue.

if he'd been prosecuted for making fun of gays in his parish magazine you might have a point.

the fact is that if you believe in free speech you should not be in favour of making it illegal to make fun of the pope.

Raytan,

can you honestly say that Urban speech was just a "free speech" not the "hate speech"????!!!

Here is more:

Swedish Prime Minister Goeran Persson hit out Wednesday at Italy's nominee for EU justice commissioner as "sensationally lacking in judgement" for outspoken comments on women and homosexuals.
In European commission confirmation hearings, Rocco Buttiglione outraged some European Parliament members with views on homosexuality, which he called "a sin", and women, whose role, he suggested, was to have children and be protected by their husbands.
"I think this is sensationally lacking in judgement," Persson said of Buttiglione's comments, according to the Swedish news agency TT.
"I think it is strange, an expression of a point of view that obviously does not represent the European Union's opinion," he added.
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/041013163124.qqn2xrm3

***A Swedish court has sentenced Ake Green, a pastor belonging to the Pentecostal movement, to a month in prison, under a law against incitement, after he was found guilty of having offended homosexuals in a sermon, according to Ecumenical News International.***
http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000853.html

Raytan,

I do not understand. The minister goes to the prison because he said something against gays in the church but Urban - should be free, no any punishment, no any financial fee for saying vuulgarizms and offensive words against the pope????

Why gays are better than the pope?

Jaga - as you know urban makes fun of all sorts of people and says all sorts of vulgar things about them - he's been doing so for years. so why do you only object when he makes fun of the pope?

the pope is obviously important to you but that isn't the case for everyone.

he shouldn't be an exception.

how would you feel if somebody was prosecuted for making fun of george dubya bush?


re: Rocco Buttiglione

he was nominated for a position on the EU council which would have required him to ensure that women and homosexuals were not discriminated against. as he was clearly not in favour of equal rights for women or homosexuals it was ridiculous to propose that he should be appointed to such a position.

the swedish prime minister was not saying that Buttiglione's comments should be illegal - he was just pointing out how inappropriate it was for somebody to be given a job that would involve promoting the equality of the very people he was prejudiced against!


re: Ake Green

what exactly did he allegedly say? to lead to prosecution it would have to have been a lot more than just making fun of gays. I'd guess that he was advocating hate/violence etc against them which happens to be a crime.

in any case - what have gays got to do with this?
<img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Raytan

because there is a double standard - gays - you need to write always good about and the church - just the opposite.

Here below is more about gays controversy in the mail to Eric.

Eric,

Urban is of the Jewish origin, his father changed the last name from original "Urbach" - which means in German "pra-brook" or "old-brook".

As for the gays. Can you imagine that EU is insisting that gays will be mentioned as victims of Auschwitz but Soviet prisoners of war not! They were over 10,000 dead and they were treated really badly - you can read about it in my article:
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27827.asp

Here is a story:

Polish Eu delegates insisted that the EU resolution about Auchwitz will be changed and they would add SOviets to the list of the victims of Auschwitz as "Jewish, Roma, homosexuals, Poles and people of other ethnicity" . Homosexuals are mentioned before Poles (over 80 thousands of Poles died) as like... they were really persecuted in Auchwitz - probably not more than a couple of hundreds of them died there.


***Sonik przyj&#261;&#322; go bez wielkiego entuzjazmu. "Gazecie" powiedzia&#322;, &#380;e chce jeszcze tylko, by do listy wymienianych w rezolucji ofiar Auschwitz, czyli "&#379;yd�w, Rom�w, homoseksualist�w, Polak�w i ludzi innych narodowo&#347;ci", dopisa&#263; jako odr&#281;bn&#261; kategori&#281; Rosjan, kt�rych ponad 10 tys. zgin&#281;&#322;o tam podczas wojny***

Eric,

do you know, that when the pope was in Auschwitz he prayed especially for three groups of people - Jews, Poles and Soviets - both - victims of the camp and the soldiers liberating it.

I read the aricle and I can see why devout Catholics would find it offensive - but if you are a devout Catholic, why would you want to read "Nie"?

personally I don't think there was anything in the article that should be illegal. the cartoon is rather cute and that the last paragraph is actually quite sympathetic to the Pope in a roundabout way. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

did you see the reader comments? I'm sure you agree with the first one!

but think about it - urban probably loved the uproar the article caused and the publicity he received for it. he's that type of guy.

why not just ignore him?

Jaga I'm sure there's plenty of people writing bad things about gays and good things about the church.

but this has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of whether it was wrong to prosecute Urban for what he wrote.

the point is that it should not be illegal to make fun of the pope (or gays or anybody else).

no exceptions.

Raytan,

but still the issue remains - the church is treated worse in EU than the gays.

Could you do some homework for me?

Please, check how many gays died in Auchwitz because they were gays? Are there more gays than Poles died in Auchwitz therefore they had to be mentioned first? Or more than SOviets POW? Are there more gays than the priests who died in AUchwitz?

The power of stereotype is terrible. I had a discussion with ladies from Bella and some were saying that killing gay was worse than killing somebody because this person belonged to Polish intelligentsia. WHy? Could you explain?

In France, Bridget Bardot was prosecuted for remarks she made. Critisism of the EU, its members or representatives is illegal in any countries that belong to the EU. In Germany try acquiring any memorabilia from the Nazi era and you might find yourself in deep trouble. Europe is full of Liberals that have tried to ban any "politicaly Incorrect" "speech". Scoundrals and scallywags in Europe have tried to bury laws and regulations against free speech in all those papers that pertain to the EU. The reasoning that the EU bigwigs use is that the common person is "too lazy and stupid to read and understand what we have written" <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

but still the issue remains - the church is treated worse in EU than the gays.

Jaga - (a) this is a meaningless statement, (b) it has nothing to do with whether Urban should have been prosecuted.


Please, check how many gays died in Auchwitz because they were gays? Are there more gays than Poles died in Auchwitz therefore they had to be mentioned first? Or more than SOviets POW?

again - I don't see how this is relevant.

you want the people you think are more important to be mentioned first - other people have different opinions.

personally I believe that Poles should definitely be mentioned prominently because I think I'm right in saying that they were the second largest victim group at Auschwitz.

but no group of victims are more important than the others. they should all be mentioned and all be remembered.

do you agree?

or do you believe (like the Pope) that the gay victims should be forgotten? why did he pray for other victims and not them?

and I wonder if any of the Jews, Poles and Soviets he prayed for were gay?

I talked with my dad about Urban, he said that he's just like a sleezy lawyer, but he gave me an example. If you saw a black and white pen, Urban would do everything possible to convince you the pen was blue!

Jaga - why is america so obsessed with gays? I just don't get it.

some people are gay.

wow.

get over it.... :rolleyes:

IMO Urban's motivation is money. Considering the Pope's contribution, publically insulting him is abuse of freedom of speech.

if being motivated by money was a crime most people I know would be in jail. although it's kind of ironic for an ex-communist isn't it?
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

just as your comments are rather ironic for a libertarian....
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Urban has plenty of money.

what he really loves is publicity. and I'm 100% sure that he's absolutely loving the fact that his silly little article is causing such an uproar.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WROTE IT? :rolleyes:

He may have spent most of his money, or he's a sadist. As a libertarian I disapprove of abuse of freedom of speech.

Why Europe is so obsessed about guys? Maybe they should not be mentioned as the victims of Auschwitz whereas Soviets are omitted.

Raytan,

do some research - how many gays were killed in WW II?

You would not believe... not that many, majority were killed before the war was started. Yes, they were forced to wear a pink sign in Auchwitz. But.. why people, even Americans think that the only victims of Holocaust were Jews and gays? They do not even know that Poles were killed also in big numbers.

Do you think really that America is obsessed with gays and muslims? You know, the Christian family of four from Egypt was killed recently in New Jersey...probably by their muslim ... Egyptian brothers, but this did not make the news in America.
Two gays raped multiple times cruely a straight guy, less than 18, then they killed him - this barely made news as compared to one case when a gay man was killed by two straight men. You cannot even mention the fact that gays are usually sexually promiscous because you are considered a biased person.

Yes, I believe that EU is hypocritical in the way it treats gays. It gives the unreal picture of gays being on pedestal and gays martyrs as compared to other martyrs which are not even mentioned. It persecutes people, especially priests and ministers who dare to say something against gays but the journalist who uses voulgarisms towards the pope is seen as the victim of the church censorship.

As for Urban - he is a jerk and there is a difference between a freedom of speech and a babbling full of vulgarisms.

*do some research - how many gays were killed in WW II? You would not believe... not that many, majority were killed before the war was started. Yes, they were forced to wear a pink sign in Auchwitz. But.. why people, even Americans think that the only victims of Holocaust were Jews and gays? They do not even know that Poles were killed also in big numbers.

=> of course there's a great deal of ignorance about the Polish experience of WW2 and the extent to which Poles suffered under Nazi and Soviet occupation. it's something I am concerned about myself.

so what's the best way to combat that ignorance - trying to educate people about the Polish experience of WW2 and the extent to which Poles suffered under Nazi and Soviet occupation - or attacking gays?

I've no idea how many gays were killed. why do you think it's so important to know if victims of the Nazis were gay or not? do you think some victims are more important than others?


*Do you think really that America is obsessed with gays and muslims? You know, the Christian family of four from Egypt was killed recently in New Jersey...probably by their muslim ... Egyptian brothers, but this did not make the news in America.

=> too any americans are defintiely too obsessed with gays. why was gay marriage the most talked about issue in the recent election? was this really the most important issue facing america? I DON'T THINK SO....


*Two gays raped multiple times cruely a straight guy, less than 18, then they killed him - this barely made news as compared to one case when a gay man was killed by two straight men. You cannot even mention the fact that gays are usually sexually promiscous because you are considered a biased person.

=> how many tens of thousands of gruesome rapes and murders are there in the US every year?

do they all get equal coverage?

perhaps the fact that you notice some more than others is a reflection of your own prejudices, or the prejudices of the US media - or both.

why have you turned this thread into an anti-gay tirade? the issue of whether or not jerzy urban should be prosecuted for his article about the pope has nothing whatsoever to do with gays or how you feel about them. it's about freedom of speech - which is something I happen to believe in.


*Yes, I believe that EU is hypocritical in the way it treats gays. It gives the unreal picture of gays being on pedestal and gays martyrs as compared to other martyrs which are not even mentioned. It persecutes people, especially priests and ministers who dare to say something against gays but the journalist who uses voulgarisms towards the pope is seen as the victim of the church censorship.

=> this may be your perception but I don't think it has much to do with reality. you seem to have a problem with gays. personally I don't.

I also don't know what it's like to be gay - but I did once share an apartment for a while with a lesbian couple (long story!)....

it didn't change my views about gays one way or the other but it did make me aware for the first time how much their lives are affected by other people's blind prejudice. they were nice people. they had good jobs. and lovely cats. I don't see why their sexual preference should be anybody else's business.

nobody is "persecuted" for "saying something against gays" unless it amounts to hate crime - ie encouraging hatred, violence etc. and unfortunatley some people are so prejudiced against gays that prejudice and violence against them is commonplace.

urban was making fun of the pope. if his article had made fun of gays I don't think he'd have ended up in court - do you?


*As for Urban - he is a jerk and there is a difference between a freedom of speech and a babbling full of vulgarisms.

=> wrong.

unfortunately if you believe in freedom of speech there isn't. I understand why you find the article offensive. but plenty of people wouldn't find it offensive and would probably find it amusing.

nobody is forcing you to go and read articles that you must know in advance that you'll probably find offensive. that's a choice you decided to make.

yes he's a jerk so why let him bother you so much?

especially as this is EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS - the whole purpose of his article was to upset people to whom the pope and the catholic religion are important....

you can't say that you believe in freedom of speech except for people who say things you don't like.

shall we agree to disagree? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Raytan,

we need to agree that we disagree. The homosexual crimes are hyped just like the hate crimes against blacks.

Referring to homosexuals in Auschwitz

You can see the main page of the New York newspaper:
http://www.dziennik.com/www/index.htm
http://www.dziennik.com/www/dziennik/wiad/sw.htm#1
"homosexuals mentioned before Poles?"

but from another relation - it seems that it would change. Soviets would be mentioned also as an ethnic groups and after the ethnic groups the homosexuals would be listed.

Maybe you think - this is not important - but... I cannot stand the POLITICAL CORRECTNESS which DEVIATE the reality!

The Polish intelligence (I can't remember what else) had it bad. But homosexuals had it pretty bad too. Those who admitted that they were had been told they'd be set free or something of the sort, but were castrated. Homosexuals were also used in testing of Luftwaffe survival gear. They'd wear the gear and be put in extremely cold water to test the durability of the equipment. They'd also be put in chambers where they'd experience large changes in pressure. Sad stuff.

The Pope has survived cancer, an assasins bullet, Parkinsons disease, the Church sexual abuse crisis, and probably a host of other phyisical maladies were not even aware of.If he can survive all this, then i'm sure he can survive Jerzy Urban's crazy magazine. And i do think Raytan is right that Urban's magazine will increase its circulation because of this court case.We all may think Urban is a scumbag, but he has a right to say it. I think this all stems from a now immature democracy. Over time this will probably change. Would we all want to see " Saturday Night Live " TV show thrown off the air and its producer jailed? Hope not!

Another Polish magazine should satarize Urban.

Jerzy Urban Russian agent?

www.stevepound.org.uk/2004-bookreview.html

To Kill A Priest
Book Review (2004)

It is hard to believe that a better book could be written about the brutal murder of Fr. Jerzy Popie&#322;uszko, and the way in which the national sense of horror hastened the end of the Communist regime in Poland, than that which Kevin Ruane has produced.

The author was not only there at the time but actually witnessed the process of denial, denigration and finally destruction that was the reaction of the then state government to the young priest from Okopy, near Bia&#322;ystock, who is the subject of this excellent book.

Ruane was a BBC journalist in Poland during the desperate years between the imposition of martial law and the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko and he has contacts at every level of Polish life.

His access to Fr. Popie&#322;uszko�s diaries makes this the definitive book on the subject and the best piece of work since my old Solidarity with Solidarity colleague Wiktor Moszczynski wrote a major article in the East European Reporter in January 1985.

Ruane writes beautifully and with a profound knowledge of Polish politics and geography. He clearly understands the tensions that existed with the Polish Roman Catholic Church and is immensely sympathetic to Archbishop (later Cardinal) Glemp who was the subject of some criticism twenty two years ago for a perception that he sought an accommodation between Catholic Church and atheistic State.

If I have a criticism of Ruane it is that he seems sometimes almost too sympathetic to many of the men of 1984.

In the case of Prime Minister and Defence Minister General Jaruzelski and General Kiszczak it can be appreciated that they were torn between a pragmatic recognition of the growing strength of the Church and the Solidarity movement in the early 1980s and the pressure from Moscow and shadowy organisations such as the Anti-Solidarity Organisation (OAS).

Ruane rightly chooses not to rush to total condemnation and history will probably support his viewpoint but it is almost impossible for anyone, even as peripherally involved as I was, to understand his sympathy fro the then official Government spokesman, Jerzy Urban.

Urban is now the millionaire publisher of a pornographic anticlerical magazine called �Nie� (Polish for No) and continues his diatribes against the Church as if he was still being paid by Premier Andropov.

In the months leading up to the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko articles by Jerzy Urban appeared in publications such as Tu I Teraz (Here and Now) under pen names such as Jan Rem and � in the opinion of many contemporary readers � contributed to the hysteria of the attacks on the young Priest.

Ruane�s opinion must be respected but he does seem to be almost too forgiving of this sinister and conspiratorial figure.

It is a measure of the quality of Ruane�s work that this is one of the few areas in which one can cavil.

The story he tells is one of breathless intensity but never less than scrupulously accurate and makes use of the widest range of sources.

From the city stopping funeral of the eighteen year old schoolboy, Grzegorz Przemyk in May 1983 to the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko in the autumn of the following year Ruane describes a nation in turmoil and an ever more desperate government facing a population growing in confidence and knowledge of their strength.

Fr. Popie&#322;uszko had become an increasingly influential critic of the Communist regime since the imposition of martial law in December 1981 but it was his presence at the funeral of the schoolboy that gave him a national, and international, prominence.

His regular Masses for the Homeland began to attract vast crowds and he became the �Solidarity Priest� in the eyes of the state apparatus and the predominantly Catholic people of Poland.

Just as Ireland became effectively ungovernable in the first decade of the 20th. Century so Polish demands for free trades unions and freedom of religious worship challenged the state in a battle that only one could win.

The attacks on Fr. Popie&#322;uszko began with smears and proceeded to random arrests, harassment and the planting of forbidden materials in his room.

None of these diminished the hold that the priest had on the people and middle ranking officers of the security forces looked to a more drastic solution.

Why a thirty-six year old priest who suffered chronic illness throughout his life should become a target for the state can only be understood in the context of Poland under martial law and in the light of the extraordinary passion with which Fr. Popie&#322;uszko spoke to the Polish nation.

He was finally murdered on a lonely road north of Warsaw by three Special Branch officers who beat him with a sand filled sock and wood wrapped in rags. A sack of rocks was tied to his leg and he was thrown off a bridge into the Vistula near Torun.

The crudity and brutality of the murder typified the inchoate fury of the state and its inability to reduce the power of the voice of Popie&#322;uszko.

In the short term they succeeded. In the long they failed.

Fr. Popie&#322;uszko is remembered today as one who hastened the end of Communism and paid with his life.

Kevin Ruane�s enthralling book is a fitting testament and essential reading for any student of the period or for anyone with an interest in the fall of Communism and the strength of the individual.

Sciwriter) i read and reread the article you posted, but i could not find any relation to the original posting. The article seems to suggest that Jerzy Urban had something to do with the murder of father Popieluszko. If thats the case , ( and i have no clue if its true or not). Then i would suggest that this article did a much worse job in assination of Urban's reputation than Urban did in assainating the Popes reputation. Do you see where were going with laws like this? You can go around and around and around. In the late 60's i got dragged into a war this country got us into. it was a STUPID decision. After all that, i don't want this government to tell me what i shall read, what i should watch, and who should i listen to. That is the crux of this whole issue. I'm mature eough to make make own judgment, and i think the Poles are too.

Jaga) you seem to be dragging the gay issue with the Pope issue in so far as public ridicule is concerned. i think there's one major diference. Publicly demeaning gays can cause violence against gays. The mayor of Warsaw recently would not allow a gay march in Warsaw, because he thought it would invite violence, ( not to mention young poles being exposed to this different lifstyle, as if it would mar them for life. ) On the other hand, i highly doubt Jerzy Urban's bad taste column would incite someone to do violence against Pope. Thats the major difference. In Warsaw's last gay parade, they were pelted with eggs and rocks by skinheads, police had to cut the parade short do to the threat to violence. So you see. there is a major difference ridiculing the Pope and and ridiculing gays. The former will just make you cringe. The latter could have much worse consequence's.

Jaga) you seem to be dragging the gay issue with the Pope issue in so far as public ridicule is concerned. i think there's one major diference. Publicly demeaning gays can cause violence against gays. The mayor of Warsaw recently would not allow a gay march in Warsaw, because he thought it would invite violence, ( not to mention young poles being exposed to this different lifstyle, as if it would mar them for life. ) On the other hand, i highly doubt Jerzy Urban's bad taste column would incite someone to do violence against Pope. Thats the major difference. In Warsaw's last gay parade, they were pelted with eggs and rocks by skinheads, police had to cut the parade short do to the threat to violence. So you see. there is a major difference ridiculing the Pope and and ridiculing gays. The former will just make you cringe. The latter could have much worse consequence's.

sciwriter: use a URL and stop posting such long idiotic articles...we can look if we want and then we don't have to scroll through tons of your posted materials! THA NKS!

Perhaps we can be a little more respectful in our criticisms, especially if it is towards a person and not an expressed opinion or idea?????

Mason,

arguing that one cannot critize gays but can critize the pope because .... critique of gays would cause more violence is a bit risky.

It is like confusing consequences with the deed.

It is like saying - "you can kill people in Holland, because there is no death penalty there, but do not kill them in Texas because you would be sentenced to death".

The deeds are the same but the consequences are different :devil: :devil:

I think the difference is quite simple really.

in Poland the Catholic Church is all powerful and all pervasive.

in this context Urban's article making fun of the pope is at worst a mild irritation. he's basically sticking his tongue out at the church like a naughty schoolboy.

homosexuals are a marginalised minority against whom there is a great deal of prejudice and hatred - and not infrequently violence.

reinforcing these already existing prejudices can have a devastating effect on these people's lives.

why do you feel the need to criticise them?

why not just leave them alone?

Critisizem on the Pope and Gays should be possible,
because like politicians, pop-stars and actors they have apublic appearance with a political or cultural context.
I am not afraid of criticizm of Gays, because in my experiance (one of my best friend is one) they are very well organised, good debaters and not weak (look at the Stonewall riot on june 28 1969).
In my opinion the Gay rights movement and the feminsts were allies. In the same time the left, liberals in the USA and Social--Democrats protected Gays- and Lesbian rights in America and Europe, because they believe in equality- and freedom for all.
I do not see why we have to be so politically correct - oversensible over critisizem and satire about minorities and religious leaders. Because those patriarchal old religious leaders have such a strong image as bearded men or dressed up symbols they get cartoons, look-alikes comedy and use of their images, because they appeare in public and have influence on millions.
People who do not belong to their group (like the secular Polish-jew Jerzy Urban) have to live with the strong influence of the Catholic church in society,
so you have the right to critisize that influence and the symbol of that influence, the Pope.
Gays in my country have influence via the media (Gay talk show hosts, Gay comedians, Gay singers, Gay politician, Gay newspaper. Gay magazine and the organisation for the emancipation of Gays- and Lesbians. Will & Grace and Six Feet Under on television) and in society (Gaybars and discotheques in Arnhem and Amsterdam, and the visibility of Gays in public life). The opposition they get from foreign youth with an Islamic or non-Islamic background, Duch far right (Lonsdale) youth, reactionary politicians and orthodox leaders from various religions (Many christians, muslims and jews reject homosexuality as a sin, because it stands so in the bible, torah and koran).
Gays react negative or critical on the monotheist religions, because they feel that they are rejected as human beings. In my opinion you are entitled to think and say whatever you want in a free society, unless you propagate openly the Death of other human beings or the destruction of a group, minority or race.

In that way I am maybe more strict than the USA, where Nazi's may march openly.

Pieter

Eric, thanks. Carl

I think i sense a bit of Anti- Semitisim in some of these postings

Be specific and talk about it. Casting undefined aspersions throttles free speech. Perhaps some anti-semitism was meant by someone, perhaps none was. Your general accusation is not a help to discussion of that problem.

If that is not satisfactory, what do you suggest as a solution?

Kai

Ok maybe this will be some help to you Kai 71. At least twice, the perpertrator of this discussion was mentioned to be Jewish. My question is why.
The man is a Polish citizen and yet he was pointed out to be Jewish. Is this because he critizsed a catholic Polish Pope?
If one would crtitisize a commentator here in this country ( US ) for his bad taste, would the fact that he is Jewish be brought into the factor? Why would it! Afterall, he would still be an American wouldn't he?
It just seems strange that the Jewish factor would be brought up. Being Polish in the US does not detract from ones Americanisim. Why would Jersy Urban's Jewishness be brought up during this controversy? I hope this was helpful Kai.

It was helpful, thanks. Now to look at the thread and see what I think, though normally it is of no iterest to me. I am impressed at the sensitivity of people and the fine lines they draw, and the stilted language that is sometimes demanded of us in the name of politeness. In this case it buried the meaning for me completely.

Thanks.

Kai

I spoke too quickly. Iam not to intersted in ging back through five pages of this discussion to look for the tracks. Good luck on getting your answer from the 'perpetrator'.

Kai

Masongeneral,

My posting was not ment to be anti-semetic, I only found it
reasonable to mention Jerzy Urbans background as a non-Catholic Pole. I find "Nie" as a satirical magazine a necassary
element in the Polish free media.
Again I am not a anti-semite, nor a philosemite or Polish nationalist. People who read my previous postings know my standpoints. Polish jewish intellectuals play in my opinion an important role in the Polish society before and after the second world war. Only the sad thing is that their influence is eagerrated
by reactionary Catholic and Polish nationalist forces, which I consider as people who are counter productive and small minded. The same forces but more influential you have in Hungary, Ukraine and Russia where anti-semitism is more present and visible. Jerzy Urban is as important for free Poland as Adam Michnik from Gazetta Wyborcza and intellectuals like
Geremek and Mazovietski.

Pieter

In the previous post with "eagerrated" I mean exaggerated.