BellaOnline Forums Travel and Culture Polish Culture Polish language - help II

Mikolaj,
I found Chlem on the map. Hmmm, was that not considered the Ukraine before WW2? I was under the impression that anything east of the Sanok River was considered the Ukraine.. You are close to my Fathers birth place.. A village called Dierwdzruwka, close to Sandomiez

Before the WWII many Jews lived in Che&#322;m. But it was a polish town. Now,the border river to the Ukraine is Bug. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The areas inhabited by Poles before the WWII were even beyond Bug, as for example the city Lw�w, which is now in the Ukraine. It was a polish city since it was founded. But that's how it came, we have lost Lw�w, bur have "recieved" Wroc&#322;aw for example.
The parents of my father lived in the today Ukraine. My mom told me, that my Grandparents lived in a village where Poles, Ukrainians, Jews and even German lived peacefully... But after the WWII the had to flee, but while most of those people fled to the new western polish areas, my grandparents decided to stay in Che&#322;m.

Przed II W&#346; wielu &#379;yd�w mieszka&#322;o w Che&#322;mie. Ale by&#322;o to Polskie miasto. Teraz rzek&#261; graniczn&#261; z Ukrain&#261; jest Bug. Obszary zamieszka&#322;e przez Polak�w przed II W&#346; si&#281;ga&#322;y nawet poza Bug, jak na przyk&#322;ad miasto Lw�w, kt�re dzisiaj le&#380;y na Ukrainie. To by&#322;o polskie miasto, odk&#261;d zosta&#322;o za&#322;o&#380;one. Ale tak to wysz&#322;o, stracili&#347;my Lw�w, ale "dostali&#347;my" na przyk&#322;ad Wroc&#322;aw. Rodzice mojego taty mieszkali w dzisiejszej Ukrainie. Moja mama m�wi&#322;a mi, &#380;e mieszkali w wiosce gdzie Polacy, Ukrai&#324;cy, &#379;ydzi a nawet Niemcy &#380;yli razem w zgodzie... Ale po II W&#346; musieli ucieka&#263;, ale cho&#263; wi&#281;kszo&#347;&#263; z tych ludzi uciek&#322;a na nowe zachodnie polskie ziemie, moi dziadkowie postanowili zosta&#263; w Che&#322;mie.

Mikolaj,
You say that after WW2 most people fled the eastern part of Polnd.. I can see why the Germans had to flee.. But why would the Poles and Jews forced to flee.. From whom.. The Russians??
My Father told me that prior to WW1.. The Poles were very oppressed by the Ukranians.. That is why there is such a large population of Poles from South East Poland ( Galicia ) in America

Yes it's true. And at the end of the WW II, Poles from Wo&#322;y&#324; had to flee from their homes because of the UPA- Ukrainian Partizan Army. They murdered many poles, sometimes destroyed whole villages along with their inhabitants, even children and old people... After the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine many people might think that the relationship between Poland and Ukraine was always good but it wasn't so. And remember that before WW II most parts of today's Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania were within the polish borders... History is indeed a complicate matter... :&#0124;

Tak to prawda. Pod koniec II W&#346;, Polacy mieszkaj&#261;cy na Wo&#322;yniu musieli ucieka&#263; ze swoich dom�w z powodu UPA- Ukrai&#324;skiej Armii Partyzanckiej. Zamordowali wielu Polak�w, czasem niszczyli ca&#322;e wioski razem z ich mieszka&#324;cami, nawet dzie&#263;mi i starymi lud&#378;mi... Po pomara&#324;czowej rewolucji na Ukrainie du&#380;o ludzi mo&#380;e my&#347;le&#263;, &#380;e stosunki Polski i Ukrainy zawsze by&#322;y dobre, ale tak nie by&#322;o. I pami&#281;tajcie &#380;e przed II W&#346; wi&#281;ksze cz&#281;sci dzisiejszej Ukrainy, Bia&#322;orusi i Litwy znajdowa&#322;y si&#281; wewn&#261;trz polskich granic... Historia jest naprawde skomplikowan&#261; spraw&#261; :&#0124;

BTW. In one newspaper I saw some time ago a photo... From Wo&#322;y&#324;... There was a post, and around the post bound dead children... But I'm really happy that the younger poles and ukrainians try to work together and don't look back on that horrible history...

This is an article about this matter, but it's in polish:
http://www.stosunki.pl/main327035530310,3,yisvp.htm

A commemoration ceremony on the 60 anniversary of those tragic events was held in 2003. The presidents of Poland and Ukraine held their speeches on a catholic cementary in the Ukrainian town Pawliwka.
It says "In the night 12/13 July 1943 the UPA attacked at one time about 167 polish villages, as a result about 10 000 poles were killed. The newest researches say, about 35-60 thousand people have been killed in Wo&#322;y&#324;, mostly civil, along with women and children. The UPA killed all in all about 50-60 thousand Poles, the Ukrainian historians speak of about 40-50 thousands victims. About 20 thousand Ukrainians have been killed in those tragic events as well"

That's about the numbers in the artivle, the rest is about the speeches of Kwa&#347;niewski and Kuczma, and so on...

A part of this article, very wise:


Z licznych dost&#281;pnych dzi&#347; dokument�w wynika jednak, &#380;e na miejsca rozprawy z Polakami organizatorzy zganiali ludzi z s&#261;siednich wsi, niekt�rych zmuszali, &#380;eby wzi&#281;li ze sob&#261; siekiery i pi&#322;y. W wi&#281;kszo&#347;ci przypadk�w ludzie nie wiedzieli, dok&#261;d i po co id&#261;. Organizatorzy rozprawiali si&#281; z Polakami, a potem zmuszali ch&#322;op�w do sprz&#261;tania trup�w, &#322;adowania na wozy zagrabionego mienia. Odpowiedzialno&#347;ci&#261; za t&#281; tragedi&#281; nie nale&#380;y wi&#281;c obarcza&#263; narodu ukrai&#324;skiego jako ca&#322;o&#347;ci, lecz konkretne si&#322;y polityczne, kt�re by&#322;y decydentem w tej sprawie.


From many nowadays available documents comes out, , the organizers gathered people from neighbouring villages, forced some of them to take their hatchets and saws and had taken them to the places where Polish people should be killed. In the most cases those people didn�t know where and for why reason they�re going. The organizers killed the Poles, and then forced the countrymen to clean up the bodies and throw the robbed possession to the carts. The responsibility for this tragedy thus cannot be saddled to the Ukrainian nation as a whole, but to the actual politic forces that decided in this case.


Sorry for the mistakes in the translation but I did is as fast as I could


BTW: Poland wants to organize together with Ukraine the Euro 2008 or 2012 (The European Championship in footbal (soccer)

WOW,
What a great lesson in history.. I also read that most of the guards at SOBI BOR were Ukranians.. And they were real B*******. There was one tried that was found living in the US..
I think that his name was DEMANCZUK.. But he was found not guilty by an Israel court. I also understand that there were a lot of atrocities performed by the Lithuanians ( Mans inhumanity to man)

About the Lithuanians... I don't know, I don't think there were such things happening in that regions as well... I think I would know something about it. I only know that some nationalistic Lithuanian organisations claim that Poland is presently (!!!) occupying Lithuanian ground (Mazury)But Poland wasn't fair either, in the time between the WW Poland occupied Wilno and the southern part of Lithuania. But I think there wasn't such tensions between them as between Poland and Ukraine. And it's better so <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikolaj,

I loved the history of your family and Chelm! And I am so glad that in this thread specifically you are using both languages, Polish and English.

I need to check how you are doing Polish letters! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Blazej,
Getting away from the language lessons, I have more questions of you.
I remember my Mom telling me that at one time Gdansk was known as Danzig, She also told me that she was forced to go to a German school.
Also, I saw somewhere that there is an East Prussia, with the capital of Konnegberg,, Can you elaborate on this?