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Haxs Offline OP
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When 1000 Americans were asked why many Muslins hated America so much over 60% used answers such as "They hate the freedom we have here", "They dont like our success" and "They don't like the fact we have troops in Saudi Arabia". These are all answers induced by CNN and George Bush. when he was asked the same simple question he gave a speach giving a large pile of [censored] about them being jelous of US success. He forgot to mention: (time line taken from "The United States and the Middle East: Why Do "They" Hate Us?"

The list below presents specific incidents of US policy in the Middle East. The list minimizes the grievances against the United States in the region because it excludes more generalized long-standing policies, such as US backing for authoritarian regimes (arming Saudi Arabia, training the secret police in Iran under the Shah, providing arms and aid to Turkey as it ruthlessly attacked Kurdish villages, etc.) The list also excludes actions of Israel in which the United States is indirectly implicated because Israel has been the leading or second-ranking recipient of US aid for many years and has received US high-tech weaponry and the diplomatic benefit of US veto power in the Security Council.

--Stephen R. Shalom

1948: Israel established. US declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.

1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.

1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically-elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter-century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.

1956: US cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.

1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. US does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.

1958: US troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability."

early 1960s: US unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.

1963: US reported to give Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.

1967-: US blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.

1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and US prepare to intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

1972: US blocks Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Egypt.

1973: US military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.

1973-75: US supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and US denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."

1978-79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. US tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, US tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.

1979-88: US begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade US provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

1980-88: Iran-Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the US opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. US soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows US arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, US lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 US provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. US provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; US restores diplomatic relations with Iraq.

1987 US sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly-aggressive US ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

1981, 1986: US holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and two Libyan planes shot down. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and US attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing two, the US charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.

1982: US gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, killing more than 10,000 civilians. US chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of US weapons except in self-defense.

1983: US troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks.

1984: US-backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.

1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The US increases its economic ties to Iraq.

1990-91: US rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). US leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted. To promote "stability" US refuses to aid post-war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights.

1991-present: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. US and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declares that "the price is worth it."

1993: US launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self-defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier.

1998: US and UK bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.

1998: US destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. US later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare charge.

Over the years the US has kiled, is killing and will kill 1000s of civilians. Through bombing of countries that cant protect themselves, over taxing embargoes and through suppling arms to violent murdereing tyrants liek Ariel Sharon. this brief timeline ignores several of the main reasons regarding Israel and Sanctions on Iran and Iraq which the UN estimates kill 10 children a day. Perhaps its time the American bullies were stoped? perhaps its time the American public opened their eyes to the atrocities their country has caused and maybe just maybe the hi-jackers of 9/11 did the world a favour by opening our eyes to there cause.

sorry about the spelling

james

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Errr ... I'm not an american and glad about it, so this is not a direct responce to your post ... I doubt though, that anyone will answer anyhing reasonable.

Admiting guilt also implies having to correct the situation and that implies that America would have to become a LOT poorer. Great part of its wealth is artificially accumulated by aggression and violation of smaller countries or of the ones that were demolished in WW2.

Also, people in America are not very calm and easy when it comes to touching their interests. To conclude, don't expect anyone to say "Yeah, you're so right ... we're real bastards, we will compensate everything to you, please forgive us ..." ... They will go on with the terrorism [censored], with freedom [censored], with human rights [censored] ... all those things are not [censored], but they are used to cover selfishness and other negative attributes in USA's policy.

I guess that this topic will stay untouched for a couple of days and then the "No new threads" messae will appear on the main page. People are here to discuss games, flowers, food ... it is not a CNN forum or something alike. Many categories here are just nominal, noone ever wants to say anything on them. Politict happens to be one such.

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Haxs Offline OP
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yeah, i nearly didnt post because of that. I was on some website and saw that timeline and thought id really like some patriotic americans comments on it, then thought where can i find patriotic americans? Bellaonline forums!

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Sometimes I amuse myself for how right I can be about certain things ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

150.000 soldiers are expected in Iraq. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sick ...

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I am an American and have read the thread completely. I was not enraged... just a little sad that even good old USA is sterotyped due to a websites posting..
Did you check to see if it was correct? I don't know so I won't debate that.

The Good old USA isn't the only "monster" out there. And maybe she is a "monster" to counter the other monsters out there.

No governmemnt or her people are prefect... and many governments and people interfer in things they shouldn't...

But I tell ya.. I would rather be a women in the
USA then Iraq or Iran.

I am glad I have the right religion and am not afraid to be put to death Like so many in Bosnia.

I am overjoyed that I didn't have to abort my 6 month fetus because it was my second child.

I am glad I am not a African women who's tribe still believes in female castration..

Maybe we don't have a right to interfer with other countries.. But we do have a right to our way of life even if it is offending to others..

And the last time I checked the USA wasn't the only country in NATO, so we aren't the only ones who have made policies for the middle eastern counties.

I have had my say and plan to say no more... I would say that you both are very welcome to your opinion about the USA...

Because even if I felt the same I could say that without fear for my life. That's what freedom is about.

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The Voices that should be heard concerning "war on Iraq"

A young Iraqi argues that the incomparable nature of his people�s burden makes the forced removal of Saddam Hussein the only ethical solution. �Regime change� from outside, wrong in principle, is in this case justified and necessary.


In the passionate debate over whether to wage war on Iraq, the position of those opposed to military action has come to rest on the grounds that such action is not morally justifiable and would result in the deaths of many innocent Iraqis. Yet a crucial element of this argument is often neglected, namely what is the opinion and attitude of the Iraqi people themselves to the prospect of war?
Iraq is a unique issue, unlike any other in the world in almost every proportion. Yes, it has a dictator, and an oppressed people, as in many other countries. However, what is fundamentally different is the way this dictator oppresses his people. The suffering of the Iraqi people is profound and extraordinary in scale. What makes it even more painful is its concealment by the Iraqi government and the ignorance about it of the rest of the world.

It is impossible for anyone who has not lived in Iraq to comprehend the continuous psychological oppression of the people by the regime. Saddam Hussein has such a complex intelligence apparatus that people are afraid of expressing any opinion, anywhere, to anyone that may be deemed negative of the government. Families are afraid of each other; friends do not dare to test the genuineness of their friendship; people are even cautious of their eyes in case a certain way of looking at a picture of Saddam or a government building is deemed �disapproving�.

These are not mere words � this is the daily, lived experience of millions of Iraqi people. The result is that every Iraqi is trapped and isolated in an individual cocoon, on constant alert from what their eyes may do or their tongue may let slip. The consequence of any such �mistake� or �slip� has almost always been the execution of the �guilty� and some or all of their immediate family, preceded by unimaginable torture and interrogation. And in case the fear is not great enough, the Iraqi government has been known to carry out random arrests of thousands of citizens, subjecting them to inhuman treatment according to the logic that this helps to flush out opponents of Saddam. No wonder that every knock on the door makes the hearts of Iraqis stop.

If this is the way the �innocent� are dealt with, what of those who actively oppose the regime? The violence against anyone even suspected of opposition (and their family and friends) is of course no less ferocious. Whole towns, such as Dujel, have been wiped out in hours because a couple of townsmen were found to be actively opposed to Saddam Hussein.

Iraq floats not just on a pool of oil, but on an ocean of blood. According to the lowest estimates, over ten per cent of the Iraqi population has been killed by Saddam Hussein and his regime over the three decades of its rule.

A choice of evils

To choose between good and evil requires only the common sense of ordinary humanity, but to choose the lesser of two evils requires wisdom. This wisdom is now desperately needed. The Iraqi people now find themselves at a junction where either path is full of danger. In the absence of an ideal solution, they must choose whether to back or oppose a U.S. �war on Iraq�.

To oppose such a war would be to maintain the status quo. That is for another million Iraqis to be slaughtered, hundreds of thousands to be tortured, and an entire nation subjected to fear and individually encapsulated in their own oppression.

To support such a war would mean that several thousand Iraqis would be killed during bombing and fighting. It would also mean that the U.S., not the Iraqi people, would decide the make-up of the post-Saddam government. Yet, almost all fellow Iraqis I have spoken to - from the United Kingdom and North America to those who have recently escaped to Syria, Iran or Jordan � express their support for the U.S.�s call for a war to overthrow Saddam Hussein. The reason for this near-unanimous support is the reality in which Iraqis live. No war, no government can ever be as bad as Saddam Hussein�s regime. Iraqis are so desperate that even a Latin America-style or Shah of Iran-type ruler would be preferable to them.

Those who oppose the war say �It should be left to the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam Hussein, if that is what they want.� But this argument ignores the fact that over half a million Iraqis have given up their lives attempting to overthrow Saddam and his regime. More than 200,000 Iraqis were slaughtered in the 1991 uprising trying to do just that. At least 100,000 Iraqis have been executed or tortured to death in Iraqi prisons attempting to do just that. No less than 200,000 Iraqi Kurds have been killed, in the infamous Anfal operation and other operations in northern Iraq, trying to do just that. The Iraqi people cannot overthrow the regime on their own, so to oppose regime change in Iraq is only to lock the Iraqi people in Saddam�s box.

Any civilian casualties are tragic, but those resulting from regime change would be minimal in comparison to the numbers that would die if Saddam were to remain. From the hundreds of Iraqis that I have spoken to, many go as far as to say they would be willing to be killed as �collateral damage� in such a war, just so Iraq can be freed of Saddam Hussein and his regime.

The further story and others can be found at www.opendemocracy.net

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Interesting and truthfull to some point ... Several points:

- NATO has many countries, only one of them has the decisive vote - USA, the others are there to fill the space.

- If Iraq's prime resource was sand and not oil, USA would calmly close their eyes on all the bad things ...

- USA wants Iraq to have oil, to end up with inner economical crisis.

- It is not for one country to decide on what should be in another.

- Hussein will die in not so long from now, is there a need of war and massive destruction?

- Have you asked yourself, why is it NOW that USA got itself so preoccupied with the situation in Iraq?

- Have you asked yourself, why is it the "mass-destruction-weapons-threat" that is being used as a motive and not the one you point out?

- USA are attacking even if no weapons are found (the current situation by the way) ... There is got to be something more behind it than just the human rights preoccupations, don't you think?

- I'm not in favour of Iraq, nor against it. I don't care that much about it. But I do see USA's policy rather offensive and unlawfull.

- I'm glad I'm not an Iraqi of course, and being a USA citizen is much better, but it is as you have said: choosing of the two evils the lesser.

- And guys, you have as much freedom in USA as in any other country, even less. It is only in USA that you accidentially killing someone's cat implies being stripped down for whole life paying the moral compensation to the heart-broken owner ...

I tell you what ... mind your own business ... stop interfering with everyone's life and people may stop hating you and sending planes against your towers ...

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Not too long ago i beleive America wasnt the nicest place to be a black but did the rest of the world bomb the USA for being morally unacceptable?

If Iraq for some reason was ruled by ealry 20th century American politicions I'm sure the western world would be at odds with it.

The same is true of Britain,hundreds of years ago they went on the crusades killing thousands of jews etc..

At the time the crucades seemed like the right thing to do as did a racist America, but now they seem like awfull crimes. It wasnt 50 years ago where women were treated as second class citizens in the west now it is horific that muslims dont treat women as equals. America and the west can't judge the rest of the world by there ideals, as im sure in 50 years some modern day events will seem barbaric (the death penalty for example).

Its also strange america and Europe dont seem to want to grant any muslim with a problem with there current goverment political assylum. Isnt that whats Americas about?

I dunno where this is going but my opinion is that america seems to think its God and just because its had success in the last few hundred years (of the several thousand years humanitys been around) can dictate to the rest of the world whats right and wrong. Iraq has nothing to do with America. Despite the aerican presses opinion Saddam isnt going to go nuking america without a reason, so perhaps if we backed off and left the rest of the world alone theyd lay off.

If you find out someone in your neighbourhood is trying to make a gun (even though you have several thousand of them yourself) the best idea is to stay out of his business rather than going after him with a baseball bat, cos thats the best way to get yourself shot! (okay, slightly wierd analogy)

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I'm in favour of death penalty actually (in some cases ...) ... some US states have it and this is a right thing ...

As for international policy ... USA are asking for trouble and one day they may get a big one.

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People are who they are because the way they were brought up and the way society has made them. Every single decision you make or thing you do is a decision in your brain based on your past experiences. For example if asked your favourate color you may reply red, while I may reply blue. This is due to deep sub-conscious decisions for example you make like red because someone you admired allways wore red. Perhaps a facination with blood (which in turn would be caused by some psycological decision. It is my opinion that every decision you make is influenced by your surrondings and past. Eg its a proven fact if you are born in "the hood" your less likely to be a high earner than if your born to rich parents. people are not born differant they are born that way. When taken to extremes this is also true (in my opinion anyway) for exampe if a 40 year old man kills and rapes a 7 year old girl it must be for a reason, and allthough the press will be unable to write his name with out shoving evil in front of it, he was not born evil (and if he was its not his fault anyway). Chances are it is because of reasons such as mental disorder, isoclation from socity, been bullied earlyer in life, been abused himself and so forth, the list of things that makes people the way they are goes on more or less indefinetly. None of these factors are the murders own fault- its what others and socity have done to him in the past. Something must have made him decide to kill that girl and its either a mental problem or his life experiences neither of which are his fault. I know its dangerous to say people arnt responsible for there own actions but its the way i feel especially in extreme cases such as murder. i am totally against the death penality.

thats my view anyway

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