I got so wound up by some of the comments, that I had to post one. Who knows if they will publish it:

-----

Interesting that some of you call Toby selfish, yet talk about how having children gives YOU great joy and some insurance of being cared for later in life in a nursing home. (Hmmmmmmmm.....selfish?) Toby is self-aware, not selfish, and kudos to him for being so. And to make the presumption that he is spiritually bereft is beyond rude. How do you know anything about his personal spirituality and values? I am child-free, by life circumstance. Through my work I make a major contribution to the not-for-profit arts sector in my country, I sponsor a child's home and education in a third-world country and am planning to bring her to NZ for her tertiary education, I support children from disadvantaged areas by paying for them to attend a motivational camp, I am a mentor to my nephews, niece and adult step-son, I help my friend with her children when she is swamped by them (because it's not all joy by any means) and I do volunteer work. I am able to do all this unselfish stuff BECAUSE I didn't have my own children to be totally absorbed by. Try to open your minds and think a bit laterally! By not having children, Toby will open his life up to many possibilities. I also get very irritated by the comment "having children is better than any other thing you will do". How do you know? Have you done the other things I have done? I have had an incredible life with amazing spiritual and connective experiences. For those of you who have children and love it - good for you! You should be happy enough in your decision not to have to push it onto others. And I do hope for your sake, you are not depending on their care in your old age. They may live elsewhere or be focussed on their own children. In case you haven't noticed, this world has way too many people in it and not enough resources. No need to get at all anxious about decisions like Toby's!

Frankly the selfish people are in my opinion, the ones who have children and then don't take care of them. If a man decides to have a vasectomy, then you can be sure he won't be running about the planet, helping conceive children that someone else will have to take care of like so many people out there that apparantly society looks on as unselfish.

I have thought for a long time that our welfare system is sending the wrong message. They should give bonuses of some kind to women who are taking birth control rather then giving them incentive to have MORE children. Aren't there enough children out there who are neglected?

Manatee, you shouldn't make fun of people with lisps. :-)

I liked your response, Feebee!

My friend in family law tells me one of his clients has 5 children each by a different woman - he has never been married. His lawyer asked him whether he planned on having any more children and his response, "I didn't plan to have any in the first place - I was living with my girlfriends and it just happened".
You'd think after the 5th that you might be motivated to take control of your life and not just let it happen - for gods sake - someone take him for his vasectomy and do us all a favour!

I have been known to ask people like him "have you not figured out what causes that yet?" YES they are shocked when I say it but for gods sake. If you don't want children and you keep getting someone pregnant, you have to ask if this person is playing with a full deck.

I'd just LOVE to be in a room with this woman. Let's see now ...

I am a licensed psychotherapist in MA., ... and a rampant breeder who likes to push her outlook onto everyone I meet.
... and can't help but wonder how much a toxic dose of narcissism fuels Todd's choice. (Baggage from childhood too much or not enough mirroring by his parents??) coming from someone who can't even get his name right. Boy, I'd be pi$$ed if I was paying you and you forgot my name - shows how much attention you're paying ... actually, I had an awesome childhood, thanks very much, and I'm on great terms with my parents. Guess that screws that theory. And since when is using your brain to form your own opinion toxic narcissism?
His choice has set the groundwork for him to focus his energy on pursuits and achievements at the expense of meaningful (and sometimes messy) relationships, right, because we all know that the only meaningful relationships you can have are with your kids, so why even bother having a husband? Oh that's right, I need a sperm donor. Silly me.
but what about generativity (giving back to the world)? I'd better quit all those volunteer positions right now ... here I was thinking that was what I was doing. Slap me now for my stupidity.
His choice and apparent lack of ultruism can result in a lonely old man, with nothing meaningful to review when it comes time to do his end of life stage of life emotional reflection. The fact that I fully intend to have a great life filled with friends, laughter, freedoms and accomplishment is utterly irrelevan. Thanks for clarifying, I was wondering about that ...
I do not see his sense of spirituality...is he spiritually bankrupt? uh, I'm not a Buddhist, if that's what you mean, but seeing as I have all this free time I'll go research it! Thanks for the tip!
I feel saddened for not just his choice about vasectomy, but his focus on self! Leaving a legacy does not only mean having children, but giving back to the world for the next generation. I thought martyrdom went out with the Crusades. Apparently it just went underground.
I didn't hear him discuss his ultruistic pursuits, only his "lifestyle"... How much time you got? I can fill up the rest of this appointment telling you all about it...
Being blessed with a spouse and family does not happen to all who hope for it, and especially not those who actively avoid it but he may want to consider his human need for generativity, and spirituality. Funny, I thought I already had ... Todd (wrong name again, dips**t!) needs to grasp the mind, body, and spirit that makes up each person and develop each of these parts of himself. There's a self help course starting at the local uni. I'd better scoot off and enrol now, because I so need to find myself! It's not all about him, I guess. I hope he doesn't wait to long to discover this. The course starts next week. Will that do?[i] [/i]

Liane Mann, LICSW [/quote]

Pika, you crack me up! Right on all counts... all the way to that fabulous signature line that's had me giggling since you added it.

Great comebacks Pikasam! Here are some comebacks of my own.

I think this is a mistake particularly for a young man. Your wants and needs tend to change as you get older. Plus what will happen if he meets the lady of his dreams and decides he would love to have a child with her??
I'll volunteer with a scout group or youth group if I want to be around kids when I am older. I have never had more than 2 dates with a woman who wants kids. The woman of my dreams has no kids and wants no kids.
What does Toby have planned for his later years? Many people like to spend time with their families. Children also help their parents through the last years of their lives with things like taking over their finances and healthcare.

Even if the child grows into a successful and responsible adult, unfortunate things can happen. Read my post about my parents' friends who are caring for their 44 year old son.

http://forums.bellaonline.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=51783&Number=338178#Post338178

I think he has NO clue of the possible joy and growth that he is missing out on! You have no clue of the freedom I enjoy with my lifestyle. The list below would give me stress, anger, resentment and send me to a dumba$$ therapist like Liane Mann. There is no joy on this list

1) Diapers
2) Helping with homework.
3) Financial stress
4) Expensive college educations.
5) Expensive car insurance
6) A bigger impact on an already beleaguered planet.
7) Little or no time for a love life
8) Getting kids to eat their vegetables.
9) Rebellious teenagers.
10) Sleepless nights.

Mike

I am chuckling away here Pikasam and Mike - you two are brilliant.