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#290267 - 02/01/07 12:59 AM Faith and Good Works  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 145
Jenna_Atheist Offline
Jellyfish
Jenna_Atheist  Offline
Jellyfish

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 145
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
For this week, a discussion on the bases for salvation. (Yes, I just wanted to say "bases".)

Faith and Good Works



Jenna Sawyer
Atheist/Agnostic
#290480 - 02/02/07 06:02 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Jenna_Atheist]  
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 764
BiblBasixEditor Offline
Gecko
BiblBasixEditor  Offline
Gecko

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 764
Chandler, Arizona
Your so funny....

"bases" lol

Why are you asking about salvation in the Atheist forum?

You such a fascinating writer. You ask some really challenging questions to which platitudes a "pat" answers aren't good enough. I iwll try to give some good points:

1. The Bible tells believrs that there is no faith without good works. Giving to others is a way to demonstrate God's love for everyone in the world. Jesus asked the question; "Who among you (unbelievers at the time) would give to your children rocks or snakes instead of bread?". He was making the point that all of us give love. He wanted us to realize that the act of loving another human being came from God. He wanted to broaden our thinking into understanding that we have the capacity to love BECAUSE God loved us first "when He formed us in our mother's womb, He KNEW us".

2. I love what you wrote in your article about intentions. At one point Jesus says to the Pharisees (the religious leaders of HIs day) that they were fake. He compared them to empty tombs that are clean on the outside and inside full of every vile thing. He pointed out that they stood on the street corners bowing and putting up a front for everyone to see how Great they were. He wanted us to live REAL Faith. He wanted us to SHOW the Father. One time, Peter asked HIm to just show us the Father and he'd be satisfied (Peter was a real brainiac! :)). Jesus reprimanded him by saying that if the disciples have seen Him, they have seen the Father. Because where Jesus went and worked, there the Father was also working. Meaning that when we do something that the world can see is a "Christian" thing, we should not only do it with our whole hearts, but with added humility giving all the kudos to the Father alone and taking none of the credit for any of our abilities for ourselves. This way we are demonstrating that God and only God gives us the strength we need to live in a world that doesn't really like us too much.

3.
Quote:
If you didn't believe in my existence, I wouldn't ask you to come over.

I love this so much that I jsut had to quote you here!!! This is so true!!! Of us. But of the Father or Jesus, not so much. They continue to be part of all peoples lives invited or not. Because He loves us FIRST. Anyone who gets a puppy doesn't leave the puppy to starve when the dog just won't like us. We may want to give the dog away, but we won't if someone WE love loves the dog. So we continue to look after the dogs needs even when we risk getting our hands bitten. So it is with the Father, everytime He blesses us with something great, i.e. a new job that pays the bills just when we need it, a new car when the old one is on it's last legs, a smile or good laugh when we feel kind of blue, a child, a spouse (or significant other because all love originates with the Father), a reuinion for a torn relationship or recovery from brain (breast, prostate, lung) cancer.

4.
Quote:
when faith is the most important, or the only important, thing, a sinner who believes and repents becomes more righteous than someone who devotes a life to righteousness, whose only crime, supposedly, was an inability to burden his intellect into submission to faith.

The whole idea of "good works" from a Christian stand point is that we can't be good enough. There's never going to be a perfect person. That's why there had (has, for the Jewish believers) to be a Messiah. Because none of us are ever going to be good enough to go to heaven without an advocate. We are so screwed up and morally flawed at the most basic level of our human existance, that we couldn't save ourselves if collectivly the world joined forces and stood side by side trying to. We're screwed, in a nutshell.

Why are are we screwed and what are we screwed out of, you ask? I'll answer the second question first. A life filled with love and joy and fullness beyond anything we could cook up in our little brain. I hear you scoffing, fantasy, right? WRONG! We weren't created (yes creationism) to live with pain. Our world wasn't designed to be shoveled or plowed or flooded. We were put here initially to be God's friends. This is what made Lucifer so mad in the first place. Which is why old Luce decided to mess it up by lying and manipulating. Which is what he is known for. So because he's the king of liars, we're screwed! He can make seem so great and can plant the seeds of doubt so deep that some of us will NEVER believe in God. *And when those of us who decide they know more than the One who brought them into existance die, they die into nothingness. It's the eternal void. Our spirit goes on, no matter what. Your spirit goes on... how do YOU want to spend FOREVER!

Just a few thoguhts. I really do love the way you write. Your incredible! BY the way, the comment with this "*" is not meant to offend anyone.

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 02/02/07 06:44 PM.

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
Bella Online Bible Basics
#292164 - 02/13/07 03:20 AM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: BiblBasixEditor]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 145
Jenna_Atheist Offline
Jellyfish
Jenna_Atheist  Offline
Jellyfish

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 145
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
"but with added humility giving all the kudos to the Father alone and taking none of the credit for any of our abilities for ourselves. "
That's one of my biggest problems with it all. I find that absolutely horrible.
"but we won't if someone WE love loves the dog. So we continue to look after the dogs needs even when we risk getting our hands bitten."
I can't imagine someone I love wanting me to keep around a dog who tries to bite me all the time. People say quite often that sacrifice is the greatest part of love, but it must be at least partly clear that I don't believe that. I wouldn't ask, no matter how much I loved the dog, to keep it around if it tried to bite my husband (if I had a husband or a dog).
And attributing doubt and a sense of self-worth strong enough to be independent from God to Satan bothers me. If we couldn't earn a feeling of greatness, how would we know we had done anything good? And the doubt would have to be Satan doing us a favor. I don't believe in faith, of course, but I have to ask, to someone who does, what good is it without doubt? How could faith be strong without being questioned? If there is no doubt, then isn't it just brainwashing? But, then, maybe you meant that Satan is only responsible for the kind of doubt labelled as stubborness and the kind of inflated sense of self that isn't actually self-worth.
Those on opposing sides of the spectrum have given me different Bible sources, some saying it's faith alone, and some good works. So "the Bible tells us" seems to be an unreliable way of determining it.
Aside from this, thank you for your compliments. I appreciate them.


Jenna Sawyer
Atheist/Agnostic
#292217 - 02/13/07 09:54 AM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Jenna_Atheist]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
texasdave Offline
Shark
texasdave  Offline
Shark

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
Good works come as the result of salvation. Salvation does not come as the result of good works. It is not the works that save. It is Christ. The good works are evidence of salvation. Christ is the cause.


" I am the way, the truth, and the life; and no one comes to the Father but by me."
John 14:6

Abortion is murder of a child and the rape of its mother
#292972 - 02/16/07 01:30 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: texasdave]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 193
Skeptic Offline
Jellyfish
Skeptic  Offline
Jellyfish

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 193
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: lovelove
Good works come as the result of salvation. Salvation does not come as the result of good works. It is not the works that save. It is Christ. The good works are evidence of salvation. Christ is the cause.

So kill and rape all I want as long as I love Christ before I die?

#292974 - 02/16/07 01:37 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Skeptic]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,313
Alexandra Offline
Zebra
Alexandra  Offline
Zebra

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,313
Verulamium, England
....Or Love, be charitable, selfless, self-sacrificing and altruistic, but if you don't believe in God, it's still the alternative for you.....









#292995 - 02/16/07 04:55 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Alexandra]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
texasdave Offline
Shark
texasdave  Offline
Shark

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
Skeptic,
No, evidence of salvation is good works. It is from the inside out not the outside in. If you are a genuine follower of Christ good works will be a natural result of your new nature. Those who continue to practice lawlessness (sin) after they proclaim Christ are liars and Christ is not in them.


" I am the way, the truth, and the life; and no one comes to the Father but by me."
John 14:6

Abortion is murder of a child and the rape of its mother
#292999 - 02/16/07 05:00 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: texasdave]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,313
Alexandra Offline
Zebra
Alexandra  Offline
Zebra

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,313
Verulamium, England
That's not what we were asking, Lovelove...
I believe (though I hesitate to put words in others' mouths) that the point Skeptic was trying to make was that: Presumably he can safely practise a life of lawlessness and sin, but providing he genuinely repents before he dies, that's ok....and I followed with the counter-argument of the good and gentle law-abiding, altruistic atheist who, inspite of having led a dedicated life, if he doesn't acknowledge or believe in God, is for the high-jump....?









#293023 - 02/16/07 06:50 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Alexandra]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 193
Skeptic Offline
Jellyfish
Skeptic  Offline
Jellyfish

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 193
Ontario, Canada
Exactly, thank you Alexandra. Let me just correct your last sentence "if he doesn't acknowledge or believe in God" because lovelove does not state salvation is for those who beleive in God, for her only the Christians get in.

#293049 - 02/16/07 09:19 PM Re: Faith and Good Works [Re: Skeptic]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
texasdave Offline
Shark
texasdave  Offline
Shark

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 253
Heaven is for those who; repent of their sins, accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sins, and follow Christ into a new life. Can deathbed salvations occur? Yes, take the thief on the cross as an example. He was saved but he will get little or no reward because he did no work for God's kingdom. God rewards those who work for Him. What about the atheist who does good works? They are carnal and they will not last. They will be forgotten. Unless He leads someone to Christ it will not endure for eternity. Of course, if an atheist did lead someone to Christ he would not be an atheist.


" I am the way, the truth, and the life; and no one comes to the Father but by me."
John 14:6

Abortion is murder of a child and the rape of its mother
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