I was wondering what your thoughts were on tolerating intolerance.

How do you work with similiar situations that arise in your everyday life?

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art41185.asp

This is SUCH A HARD THING..... Thanks for writing a great article. It's definitely something that I need to work on.

Your article is very nicely put!

Nice article Samten. I read an article by Natasha Hoffman this week in the Cygnus Review (lovely New Age book company based in Wales) that said that learning to cope with tyrants was a big lesson for those on a spiritual path.



There will always be someone who tries to pull you down to your level & bully you into their world view. I've been doing a lot of self- reflection over the past couple of weeks & realised that whenever someone has provoked me in the past I have risen to the bait, even though arguing is something that upsets me. Now I am just starting to realise that I don't need to do this. I'm allowed to take a step back, shrug & think 'oh well let it go, we aren't going to agree and I don't have an obligation to pay attention and respond to everyone that tries to argue with me.'

It always seems to me that the people who try the hardest to convert you to their way of thinking (be it political, moral, religious, whatever) are the ones who are actually trying to convince THEMSELVES of those beliefs.... the people who are the most comfortable in their way of thinking and being generally just live and let live. I try to remind myself of that when I get preached to. Oh, and take a deeeeeep breath. And count to 10. Or 100, if it's really bad. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Samten

Megan,

When you count do you take deep breaths each time you count a new number or do you just count?

I ask because I never found just counting to help I have to take a deep breath each time to help recenter myself.

Lauren,

Is the article online? I think I'd like to read it.



That sounds like a meditation practice called Tonglen Here is a great explanation of the visualization.


It seems like those who want to cause discord are in alot of pain themselves. Makes me feel bad for them and to hope that they will find peace.

I find it interesting how some people choose to transmit their beliefs via the medium of non-consensual conversation and debate. I mean, why would anyone want to talk to someone who, right off the bat, makes it clear that they think you are bad and wrong just because you think or live differently?

When people approach me like that, I visualize myself as a mirror and I let their own energy bounce back to them.

Samten, It is online here
Cygnus books
under this month's letter.

If any UK readers are looking in I can throughly recommend this company- they are wonderfully spiritual & lovely people to deal with.

The mirror technique is useful. The more aggressive someone is the closer to them I put the mirror. In the end they find
are shouting at right back at themselves, which is a learning experience for them. Works the other way too- if they are loving they receive love.

When I count, I do a visualization of a big thermometer-type thing in my head.... it's full to the top of red stuff when I start, and with each deep breath I can make it go down, it's usually numbered 10 down to 1, so when I count, it goes down one notch for each number. Sometimes I have to focus on a number for awhile for it do go down.

When I do the 10 count with my deeeeep breathing, I count slowly to eight while I inhale and hold my breath to 9, 10, 9 and then start to exhale slowly while I count slowly backwards to 1. Each time I do this, I replace the #1 with the next consecutive # until I've made it all the way to 10, 2,3,4,5,...3,2,10.

It helps me relax and recenter myself when my brain is concentrating on simple counting sequences and reverses! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trish

Tolerance is not respect.

Coming from a Christian perspective, I think too many people think they are being respectful when someone airs a belief that is contrary to God's Word by just sitting by and grasping to the old cliche, "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" or "all roads lead to God, your reality is really the same as mine". Can't anyone see that agreeing to disagree is not the right solution?

There is a way to present the Christian truth without alienating everyone. It's my belief that those who are infuriated by the truth of God's Word are those who are living outside of their own truth. God's truth is our truth. We are the chosen audience...all of us, not just a select few.

I don't need to relax and allow others to spout their beliefs and then weight them and take them into me because I have my own and I don't need theirs. If someone is talking to me about the validity of God's Word, I just direct them to it, after all, God does a much better job than I do of saying what He means.

Love the thermometer method Megan. That is a really powerful visual image- much better than just counting. Bet mine is stuck right at the top for a while sometimes <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Samten

Dave, the thing is... you've spoken. You've made your points, you've made your views clear, and now you wish to do nothing but insult. Had you come in, made rational statements about how your religion was different and WHY you believe the way you do, it would've been a lot less offensive. However, you came in and attacked people, cruelly, making mockery of their belief systems (which they have every right to hold) and making horrible comments about them and their families.

You complain that tolerance wasn't shown to you, but you showed no tolerance OR respect to those editors, who, if you had been logical and kind, might've let you hang around. You were given the opportunity to speak, and you abused it, and were therefore silenced, which, as far as I can tell, is what you were hoping for. You were hoping to make those editors be "mean" to you so you could perceive yourself as some sort of martyr, enduring hardship for your faith. In law, they call that kind of behavior "entrapment", and in life, they call it "immaturity".

With that, sir, I'm done speaking to you. You've wasted enough of my time, and I'm simply worn out. You have no desire to listen to anyone else, only to spout off about your beliefs. You are clearly right about everything, the rest of the world is wrong. Fine, whatever. And don't bother replying with some nasty statement about how I'm going to Hell. I'm fully aware that under your belief system, I'm going, for multiple reasons. My belief system holds that there is no "hell", as an afterlife concept, and NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING that you say will change that. Even if I listened to proseletyzers, I still wouldn't listen to you, because you've proven to me that you're a kook, and I can't imagine EVER taking you seriously.

Thats a great visualization method Megan!

Does anyone else have a method that works for them?

I'm pretty good at not reacting because when people start acting crazy, they look crazy to me and I get distracted by noticing that instead of taking in what they say. However, afterwards, in my mind I often have battles with them and then that's the part I need to struggle to let go of. I don't want to carry around pushy, angry, arrogant people or thoughts in my head. It gets so full that way I forget to fill the space with things I love.

When all else fails, the ignore button is a wonderful facility. texasdave is on mine....
I am moderator on another Buddhist forum, and i would just like to add as a 'professional' note that it's important to not blur the edges when moderating on a buddhist forum.

Moderating has nothing to do with Buddhism.

it has everything to do with Common courtesy, respect, politeness and dignity. If a person continiues to step over the line, inspite of repeated (public and/or private) requests, they're banned.
By all means enhance your own practise, and question your motives against your Buddhist ethics...but tolerance does not mean giving them so much rope they end up tying us up in it....

And if this post is out of line, I sincerely apologise, and would be quite content for Moderators to do with it as they wish.

I'm (through hard and difficult experience) trying to help here.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

loved the article, thank you <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think it very important to view any challenge to our stability and security, within our Buddhist practise, as a Teacher....
It's all very well mixing with like-minded people.... those whose views coincide with our own, those whose views are the same or similar, due to their practise.... But whilst this is all very well and good, and essential in order to underpin our practise, and comforting (there is after all, safety in numbers) That which challenges us is by far a better learning curve.

The story comes to mind of the Monk who escaped from Tibet after being incarcerated for over 14 years, and subjected to daily beatings, torture and appalling inhuman conditions... This had left him bent, crippled, deaf and blinded, virtually every bone in his body had been at one time or another twisted, dislocated or broken...and looking 20 years older than he was....he was asked, what, during his 14 years at the hands of his captors, had been his greatest fear?

He responded, quite calmly, that the one thing that has scared him more than anything else was possibly losing his Compassion for the Chinese.

With his level of tolerance, I know that anything and everything I could possibly endure, pales into insignificance.
If ever I feel my anger rising, or my impatience, i think of him.

And what did his suffering accomplish? When he died where did it get him?

Where do you get the impression he's died?

(BTW... I have you on "ignore"... I only know what you submitted in your post, because the e-mail notification gave me your post content, sweetie. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So I just thought I'd clarify. )

I must admit that I have a problem with intolerance because I have suffered at its hand for many years, but one thing that helps me is to think of the person as a member of this living, breathing LIFE to which we all belong and that we are all on a path to that deeper love and understanding.

I also have fond that once I have seen someone, or even a picture of them, I can no longer feel anger or resentment. There is something in the human face which is beautiful, and it holds the promise of what that person can become.

I try to love that inner beauty, and believe it is there in every form of life.

Peace and love,

Patience, you are a wise and loving person. This is the first post recently that was calm, showing the "inner beauty" of each of us, as you said. If only everyone here would try to be tolerant and let each person express personal views without attacking any individual personally, we would all be truly "tolerating intolerance". <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Plus, as you said, Trevy, it gets hard to carry around someone else's negative stuff in our heads, instead of the things that we love!

If a person doesn't have anything good to say, then they should just be quiet. If the shoe fits, wear it. You make your bed, then you have to lie in it. etc., etc., etc.

Personally, I still like the deep breathing to cleanse my body and mind. Nothing is quite as peaceful as giving our brains a few minutes of oxygenated blood to think better while we give our hot tempers time to cool. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trish

I just try to remind myself of my own story: it was intolerance and other negative speech and behaviour that caused me to question the religion I was in. Therefore perhaps the person whose intolerance is becoming intolerable will help another to begin questioning and find a true path - whether or not that is the intolerant person's intention. I think it is karmic when the destructive things someone speaks to persuade have the opposite effect intended.

Everything is a lesson; everything is karmic - it all counts. And Tolerance goes hand-in-hand with Compassion.... If we could just catch a glimpse into the life of this person - if we could just settle momentarily into their subconscious - or even into their mind, and Life -experience, how much more we would be able to "see where they're coming from" - !!
Those people we label as 'intolerable' react the way they do, out of Pain and Fear... and Pain and Fear manifest in the form of Anger and the desire to Control...
What they cannot Control Within, they will seek to Control Without.
Recognising those deep-seated emotions within ourselves, observing when they manifest, examining them and analysing the where, why and how, will give us a clearer insight into these emotions in others... Retaliation is merely a resistance against their desires for control....That is the time we begin to manifest these same emotions ourselves... And so the Struggle goes on.
I am not saying we should become doormats, but passive resistance and meeting "hate" with LOve, is the only way to go.

Post deleted by Samten

Is he talking to me?
Again?
He knows I've put him on ignore...
.......Is he doing it again?
Is he talking to me?
TD4....
You don't get it , sweetie, do you? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

.

I mostly agree with you...However, I would not say he is entirely harmless... the young, impressionable emotionally fragile and gullible are succeptible to such indoctrination. One may find him amusing and entertaining. But his rigid, unmoving and blinkered doctrine is a subtle and threatening weapon.
He may claim to speak for God, but I do not hear God in his words.
That's why I'm ignoring him.
Not because he's a Christian and I'm a Buddhist.
To my mind, there is no difference between two people who practise these faiths....
No.
I'm ignoring him because he's insiduously dangerous.

The same goes for Deut3019. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he is even more questionable....

Post deleted by Samten

Davey love, I think you might have to wait a ruddy long time before the listening, accepting and beleiving bit matey. I mean, I've seen you call people 'cancers', 'liars' and 'sinners', and then you wished for an earthquake/terrorist attack on the uk. I'm not an expert in PR, actually....I ruddy well am*! 'personal relationsthing' is my middle name...it's true!** Good. That's sorted. Moving on. What I meant to say was, right...erm...I'm not an expert in PR (although I am, right, but ignore that), but I think you could work on your presentation a bit. I mean, there's no gags, and being really patronising and nasty to everyone isn't really going to get you any converts is it? So you're not really helping are you (apart from a couple of nice posts you did a few weeks ago)? Are you listening? No? That's just fine. See if I care. I don't. Stop reading this now.

Look, you learn something new every day, and today I�ve learned that you�re a complete (insert something mildly offensive here).

* that's true that is
** you can check my birth certifacite if you don't beleive me!

.

Post deleted by Samten

Post deleted by Samten

Alexandra, FreeSpirit, Family Choice,

So tolerating intolerance means that you get to act like a child on the playground? You all have lowered yourselves beyond compassion or caring. I am sick of all the bickering that has been going on and some of us have tried to be nice and helped to keep the peace.

Being a Christian means that a person wants to be Christ-like: kind, compassionate, gentle, understanding, helpful, loving, forgiving. It also means that we are responsible to let those who are not saved hear the word of God and be told the plan of salvation.

Dave is not brainwashing anyone, he is simply trying to help save anyone who is not a Christian. We are called upon as Christians to spread the way to be saved, which according to the Bible is in John 3:16: For God so loved the Earth that he gave his only son that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

There, I've told you the plan of salvation. You make the decision. You all seem old enough to understand that and I respect that. You are not my young students that need to be reminded over and over and over again. That is the difference between me and Dave; I don't need to convince you, I need only to tell you the words or "plan". That is God's work for a Christian.

I believe there are many answers out there for open minded people. I know there are many questions that we will never know the answers to until we die and meet our "maker", God for me.

Now, if we all take a DEEEPPP, SLLOOOWWW, BRREATHHH .. count to 10 and exhale to 10 and repeat it two more times, then WE ALL WILL FEEL MUCH BETTER!

It is so much nicer to be tolerant and kind and smile with each other than it is to snarl, snap and talk curtly. I choose the first. How about you? I was always taught "Smile, and the world smiles with you; Cry, and you cry alone".

Smile, and the world smiles with you! Try it! Have a blest, wonderful night into day! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trish

.

.

Again...



PS. texasdave, I have not deleted your posts, I just moved them.

.

SAMTEN, Thank you for your intervention. I appreciate it.

TRISH, If you could point out to me where exactly I've acted like a spoilt child in a playground, I'd be grateful.

FREESPIRIT... tsk tsk tsk....:o Remember first and foremost you are a young lady. Dignity sweetheart, dignity. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Blimey matey it's all been going on here hasn't it! Are my trousers on fire or has it got decidedly hot in here? Babyquaker, I understand your appeal for calm, that's lovely, no problems with that old friend*, but I've noticed that on the forum Davey soemtimes gets a bit wild eyed and unpredicatable, and posts deliberately inflammatory messages (and that's true, he even admits that he causes offence to get a reaction, look it up if you don't beleive me). Nothing to do with jesus or that malarkey, but messages that are designed with the intention of stirring things up. Like the shooting animals and earthquake/terrorism stuff. Which is fine, right? We all like a bit of a rumble in the jungle now and again (oo-er), but what I'm trying to say is, erm, I've forgotten. **

I think we'll just leave it there. I shall say no more.

I probably do act like a child in the playground, I am half mad after all (blip) and a wild eyed, big-bottomed anarchist, but I'm not perfect (actually I am, but we'll forget about that for now) but if you can put up with Daveys spurts then you should be happy for me and my friends to reply to Daveys old stuff and post our fantastic insights into the human psyche (check this). Actually forget about this, I've reached my bottoms now.

* no offence obviously, I love your work
** insert something here

Post deleted by Samten

That's not strictly true now is it Davey love? You have called people cancers, and called for a terrorist attack on the uk. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's going to cause a little bit of conflict. I think we'll just leave it there shall we?

"Retaliate not. Be silent as a cracked gong when you are abused by others. If you do so, I deem that you have already attained Nibbana although you have not realized Nibbana.

Such is the advice of the Buddha."

From BRAHMAVIHARA - THE SUBLIME STATES - chapter 12

And about 530 years later, Jesus said:
(This is so beautifully poetic. It's a crime that the King James' Version is no longer permitted....!)


"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."
(Luke 6:28-31. King James Version)



Plus �a change, plus c'est la m�me chose....

.

Alexandra,
Amen. It is poetic. But why do you say the King James version is no longer permitted?

TD4....I'm responding, because I know what you have enquired through my e-mail notification of contributions to this thread.
The Roman Catholic Church, head office in Rome, in it's usual blinkered, superior and domineering, authoriatrian way, saw fit to forbid use of this version of the Bible in RC Churches, because it was printed at the behest of a King who reigned over a Protestant, Church of England Country....

[url=BellaOnline ALERT: For anti-spam reasons, we restrict the number of URLs allowed in a given post. You have exceeded our maximum number of URLs.

Alexandra, I appreciate your kind, compassionate remarks, "Not because he's a Christian and I'm a Buddhist.
To my mind, there is no difference between two people who practise these faiths...."

My remarks about schoolyard children were in reference to earlier pages, granted, more about freespirit &familychoice than you. I want to address freespirit quickly and then move on, as you seem to be making a concerted, honest effort to get through to Dave. I think that is very admirable, because you seem very knowledgable AND open minded. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by lumping you in the whole group, Alexandra. I truly am.

Trish

Freespirit, you seem so full of hate and anger.
"Oh davey I am so sorry I didint get to read your post before it was kindly deleted.No doubt the verbal diaharea was spilling out the sides of your godly mouth..."
"goodnight davey and give jeezus(sic) a kiss goodnight for me okay? Remember jeezus lurves(sic) you....Everyone else thinks youre a ****"

...and now you are throwing that hate and anger toward me
"People dont want to be preached to so just do us a favour and find oter people to "convert" you religious zealot "

I offered a simple explanation and you took offense and blasted me with all your anger and hate. You don't seem to show tolerance for many people, dear friend.

Trish

Thank you Trish, but please don't worry.... My feelings are just fine..... Very nice of you to come back on that, though. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

.

Whoa, I guess I have been missing a few things here!

Considering this thread began because Samten wrote an article on "Tolerating Intolerance" - and learning how to become more tolerant of others, it seems like the whole thing has gone downhill! And it has turned into a major Christian vs. non-Christian battlefield.

Dave, Trish, and I are all Christians - and yes we do refer to each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, because we consider God as our Father (no jokes about incestuous behavior w/ Adam and Eve, I have already addressed this in another post). But we are human, too and make mistakes. For example Dave and I do not see eye to eye on everything - he thinks I'm too laid-back, and I feel he's too aggressive, but we deal with each other about that. And many of you have seen when I have spoken with Dave when I thought comments were out of line.

On the other hand, I am not going to sit back and let someone else come in and start bashing on Dave just because he and I had had a few disagreements - that would not be fair. Intelligent debates are one thing - go for it, even the ones that get heated- I'm going to stay out of those. But here lately it has been turning into simply mud-slinging on both sides.

And as for Trish (babyquacker) - I can't remember a time when she has ever insulted anyone! I truly felt what was said to her was uncalled for.

I really struggled with saying anything, because I very much respect you Freespirit (and I know that last comment was at you), and I don't want to alienate you. I find your arguments intelligent not only here but in other areas as well. (Although I am curious as to what "sic" stands for?). So I apologize if I'm coming off as the school-marm.

But I think everyone needs to step back and cool off - on both sides of this (and all other religious) debates. Because as of right now we are not really accomplishing anything, not even good conversation. All we are doing is having fights! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by texasdave4

.

For Christians, this is the 'New Year'... It marks the end of the Old and the beginning of the New. So for those who celebrate this festival, I wish you all a very Happy Easter.

.

Please accept my humble appologies and excuse my last post. I am deleting it. Now, look at that, I'm deleting one of my OWN posts.LOL

Freespirit, your apology is accepted. As far as I'm concerned, it never happened.

.

Hi, Alexandra! Thanks for the Easter wishes and the goodwill sent my way. Spring is a wonderful time of year with all of nature coming alive: birds singing, flowers blooming, trees starting to bud, children playing. All the beauty around us reminding us that life renews itself at Easter, an extra special benefit for Christians since it means rebirth for us.

Thank you for your grace and peaceful approach to problem solving. I like starting a new year and leaving the bad impressions in the old year. That's a cool idea!

Peace and Blessings!

Trish

Well, of course, both Christmas and easter are Christian festivals the dates of which coincide with much older pagan and non-christian festivals and celebrations....

http://www.logon.org/english/s/p235.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

However, whatever anyone may be celebrating at this time - be it The resurrection of Jesus Christ, or the fertility of the Goddess OEstre, and the renewed Life each symbolises - I wish you all an invigorating, joyful and Life-filled weekend!

.

Peace be to both of you and may God put a blessing in your life.

Cool on the "sic" thing - I just didn't know what it meant.

And I wasn't just referring to you, I just knew that one comment would be at you. Like I said, I really enjoy our conversations.

Everyone seemed to be cranky, but it seems like all seemed to realize this about the same time I put my post up (judging by the time of the posts.) So I am glad to see it all coming together.

For my part, I am sorry if I offended anyone - I know I have a way of coming off as high-handed and "teachery". I work with kids a lot at my church, and I guess I have a hard time turning over to adult conversation (although I oh so desperately need it!)

I really enjoy getting to met the different people here, even the ones that have different views from me - because that's what makes life interesting! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

.

Well, this is nice.
This is the way it should be, and it feels so much better.....


I'll pop kettle on....!

<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

It does feel so much better, Alexandra, and listen how great it sounds. It reminds me of Michelle's daughter's birthday last year. Did you see the picture of her friends dressed up and having a tea party underneath the sheer canopy with their hats? It looked like so much fun!

Great weight loss, Natalie! I'll have mine without sugar, too. How about you, Michelle?

Have a wonderful day, ladies! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Trish

Oh, terrific...!
What the heck am I supposed to do with all these buttered crumpets, these devon clotted cream cakes and this black forest gateau then...huh??......HUH?!?

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yummy!! I said I'll have my tea without sugar, not that I was giving up ALL sweets. That'll save count for some of those goodies you've got! I was just planning on bringing a few finger sandwiches but your spread sounds like a delightful end!! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Trish

Ah, yes... and what a spread...

Two minutes in the mouth,
Two hours in the tum - and
Two years on the hips - !!
Lucky it is all virtual - !!

Oh, nope - gastric bypass, tea has to be sweetened with splenda, and forget all the other wonderful wounding things! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Although I can have lox & cream cheese, just minus the bagel, LOL!

Bad news, now they say splenda may cause cancer. Are you shocked?! Me neither. Next week it will probably cure it.

I think that's only in studies where they gave mice 2 lbs a day.

That means I would need to consume - oh, I don't know, about 100 lbs a day? Does that sound good? LOL And considering I use one teaspoon in each drink, I think I'm probably safe! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, I'd rather take my miniscule chances with the Splenda, than with the high blood pressure, oncoming diabetes, and various other physical ailments that are resolving themselves now that I'm losing weight!

I do Believe that those artificial sweetners are not the best for you...While I was loosing weight I consumed many foods with it in it and I deffinatley noticed changes in my skin tone and also its just not natural...What is these days though?

The only 'natural' sweetener Man has not yet succeeded in replicating, is Honey...Due to its unique and complex manufacturing process, we haven't cracked the artificial Honey yet!!

I was thinking this thread was getting off-topic (guilty as charged) but then, when I saw that there is a mixed tolerance to artificial sweeteners, or sugar... I figured we are still on course - !! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />