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Joined: Mar 2006
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Zebra
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Originally Posted By: KathiMartin
To Alexandra: Keep in mind that words will differ depending on which translation of the Bible one uses. The text you used was not from the KJV, but I believe Dountonia was using the KJV.

So in other words, the advice given was from one perspective only, and not one from differing sources, thereby giving a broader view...I see....
Quote:
To us Baptist, self-pleasure (masturbation) is as much a sin as fornication (sex between two unmarried people) or adultry (sex outside the bonds of matrimony).

"To us baptists". Therefore, not necessarily a broad-scope point of view but one possibly unique to Baptists. Which you should have pointed out, in fairness, to help the OP gain a more general overview.
Quote:
One does not need to get into lengthy word studies to know what God considers a sin.

Yes, I'm afraid you do.
for several reasons.
One, Doiuntonia started that one saying that such exercises were interesting and informative.
Two, because, as you pointed out, different Bibles say different things and are therefore open to different interpretation - which would have been a fair thing to point our, and
Three, because you just said that "To us baptists" it's a sin, and now you're saying it's what God considers a sin.
You can't have it both ways.
it's either definitely a sin as clearly instructed by God, unambiguously, or it's a sin because we baptists have seen fit to see it as such.
Which is it to be?

Quote:
One need only read one's Bible. We were merely reaching out to an individual who has many issues that need to be addressed through professional counseling, not through a forum such as this.

In that case, no attempt at all should have been made to answer the question, and the OP should have been advised immediately to do just that:
Seek professional counselling, because in spite of personal opinion and interpretation, this is not a place to discuss such complex and emotionally critical problems such as this one.

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Zebra
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Originally Posted By: Dountonia - Baptist Site
I agree with Kathi, there are issues here that cannot be thorouhly addressed within the context of a forum.

in that case, you should not have attempted to do so.

Quote:
Not to mention, there is only one interpretation of the Bible

No there isn't, there are several...
Quote:
but there are many applications; and based upon one's spiritual maturity and where they are in their walk with God the application may be different from Christian to Christian because God meets us where we are.

in that case, you should have made that absolutely clear, and that this application was from your POV alone, and not an absolutely 'written-in-stone, unequivocal, inarguable fact.

Quote:
But, as we grow and understand what God's will is, then the Holy Spirit works in us to sanctify us with the Word and our thoughts, deeds, actions change to become in alignment with God's Will.

I can only presume you assumed you were in a sufficiently advanced state, in comparison to that of the OP, to feel qualified to make such a personal and individual interpretation sound like solid instruction, then....

Quote:
Sex within the context of marriage is good. Sex outside of marriage is wrong because the Bible says it is. Although masturbation is not mentioned in the Bible, the act itself defies the original intent of sex as defined by God's word.

No, it doesn't. This is just a baptist supposition, because as I pointed out, you haven't shown anywhere that this is so.
you have therefore taken it upon yourselves as baptists to include it, for your own convenience.
I'm afraid you don't convince me. Not once, did I see the word masturbation in the context of sin, within the verses you quoted, regardless of which Biblical version you used.

Quote:
I have always found it interesting that the original (or older) definition of masturbation is self abuse.

Yes. A definition coined, no doubt, by religious authorities who chose to call it this in an effort to control the masses.
Sex is the oldest form of recreational activity on the planet. Unsurprising then, that religion should chose this as a stick to beat people round the head with. Nowhere, in any Bible, do the words 'self abuse' appear together, in this context. or any other, for that matter....

Quote:
Sex should go beyond the temporary pleasure of body exploration.

Why?
Who says?
Where?

Quote:
Is it possible to golify God while masturbating using the Biblical intent for sex?

Given that God's never had sex, why should he enter into the equation?
Quote:
If one is unmarried, where do the images to arouse oneself to the point of stimulation come from? Definitely not your spouse because you do not have one.

This is a strawman argument, and I have no idea why you've brought it up, or what your intention is.
Are you saying that whilst making love to your spouse, you would be focussing on God, somehow?
You're kidding, right?

Quote:
When quoting Scripture, the entire context of the verse needs to be taken into consideration. Who? What? When? Where? Why? and How? need to be answered when reading paragraphs of text to gain a better understanding of what GOD intended for the reader.

Which at no point, you either did, nor did you clarify your thought process.
You just bundled 'masturbation' in there, and told the OP that this was a given...

Quote:
God's word doesn't always agree with what I think. But, if I love Him, I will obey Him.

No, and your words are not always in accordance with God's but that's what you wanted the OP to believe.
At no point in your post, did you indicate that this was your interpretation, and your Point of View.
Which was misleading, deceitful and manipulative.

Think about what I've said, here, and see how you might have misled the OP into believing something, simply because you say it is, that actually is a debatable and moot point. ....
Just think about it....

Last edited by Alexandra; 01/01/10 04:58 PM.
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There is only one meaning that God intended for the writers He inspired to communicate to His people. Yet, there are many applications which people often confuse as an interpretation.

I cannot in good conscience based upon my study, understanding, and application of God's Word teach/advise/encourage ANYONE who asks whether in the forum, at church, on the street, phone, email, etc. that masturbation is an okay practice for the Christian.


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Zebra
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I'm not suggesting you should.
What I am saying, is that you should be honest and admit that this is purely YOUR understanding and application of God's word, and on that premise, the OP should also investigate other avenues and sources, and also seek counselling of a professional nature for such an issue that causes such complete inner anxiety and anguish.
This was a subject of such high sensitivity, it really should never have been aired, let alone tackled on public forum, which is open to every and anybody to peruse.

As a senior Moderator on two different forums, I personally would never have allowed this kind of question to be aired.
And my motivation in deleting, would have been entirely for the OP's protection.
Please don't take that as a criticism. I'm merely speaking from a POV of personal experience.
I would even go so far as to suggest - or recommend, even - that you delete it now, even after this time has passed.
If I found it, anyone can....

Have you heard back from the OP? Has she reported on any progress?
I truly dread to think what state of mind she might be in now, if she hasn't.

Be well.
With much metta,
Alexandra.

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Thank you very much for your concerns. I really appreciate your perspective and experience in forum management. However, the way I choose to facilitate this forum will be done so in a way that will include my worldview, values, understanding, and experience. There is nothing wrong with you or anyone else disagreeing with my position, but, I would never think of telling/suggesting/recommending to you how you should manage your forum or which posts suit my tastes.

And, you are absolutely correct. After the poster asked, I did share my understanding and application of Scripture because she addressed the question to me on this forum. Although I do welcome other points of views on this forum, this is the Baptist Forum and all responses from me will unapolegetically be from a Biblical point of view. Not to metion, I want people to find the post because my prayer is that people will start to ask honest questions about real life issues and seek Biblical answers to those issues for themselves.

I thank God that she had the courage to ask such a sensitive question. I would bet that there are probably many other Christians who are struggling with similar issues and probably people with similar concerns as yours. I will not hide/delete/ignore such concerns. Plus, I did have the foresight to enourage her to search the Word for herself and to seek counsel from her Pastor, a counselor, an accountability partner, or someone in her local church to help her deal with her issue on a more personal and thorough basis.

Again, I thank you for bringing your concerns to this Forum. I think that's what sharing our perspectives/opinions/experience is all about and (unfortunately) sometimes we may not agree. But, I will continue (whether people ask me or agree with me or not) to boldly proclaim the Word of God and to point others to Christ Jesus.




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Originally Posted By: Alexandra
Have you heard back from the OP? Has she reported on any progress?
I truly dread to think what state of mind she might be in now, if she hasn't.



Alexandra,
I have been reading this exchange for a couple of days and was really interested in how D would respond. I am happy to know that I made a wise choice in reaching out to her. My initial reason was because her articles hit home spiritually for me. Now, I am glad to know that the same conviction and class she writes with is consistent with how she handles disagreements.

At the time of my original writing, I was not connected to a church. I have finally found a church home that is loving and biblical. By participating in outreach ministry, I found a man who loves and respects me and my body. I am learning the difference between just not having sex and purity. I want to live a life of purity while single and be able to give myself to my husband when the time comes for me to be married. There is a lady at my church who is helping me to walk in the faith and she really holds me accountable! Things are better, but I still struggle sometimes. During those times, I use bible verses that convict me and I PRAY REALLY HARD to keep from sinning against my own body. The guilt after doing what I used to do is not worth it to me plus it made me strongly want to do the real thing. So, I am learning how to view relationships differently, soak in the word, and TALK honestly about "sensitive issues" to people I trust.

So, you all see that my state of mind is just fine. All of the comments have me thanking God that my thinking and desires have been adjusted to align with what pleases God. If it wasn't for the forums and the ability to anonymously share secrets stuff with people, I could very well be stuck in a twisted relationship with a man who was forcing a sick view of god on me and my body. People we really need to get back to the bible -- it's not just a book but the voice of God, a guide that helps us to live life. Like D wrote, Christians really do need to stop pretending like they don't go through anything like I did.

Please everyone keep me in your prayers. D, keep on shining the Light.

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Thank you so much. I will keep you in my prayers.

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Zebra
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Well, I guess that's a wrap.....! wink

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I moved on with my life I have nothing to do with my famiy or he n contact with them. Our own mther could not even go and visit my 51 old sister when she was hospitalized fighting cancer, my sister wanted our mom's comfort and on her dying days she asked for mom, when she finally passed mom didn't even have the decent to come to my sister's funeral to say good bye and pay respects to her daughter. I have forgiven them but they are still filled with so much hate inside. I am living my life and healing the broken pieces in my own way and with God's help and grace and mercy. God is first in my life. God is who I want to serve.

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I have often thought about you and prayed for you since your last post. I am glad to know that you have moved on with your life with God's help. He is so faithful and so good.

You have my condolences for the loss of your sister. And, I pray for comfort and strength for you.

I have learned that healing and mending of the broken pieces in my life come by reaching out and helping others who have gone through what I went through. And, sometimes they are more of a blessing to me than I could ever imagine that I am to them.

I pray that you learn to use what God has allowed you to go through to help other hurting women to find their strength in God as you have. May your faith increase as you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sisters in Christ

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