BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Buddhism Your Thoughts on Killing

I PMmed Alexandra separately about her posts, that discussion is best a private one. To speak generally, our forums are open for all discussion from all points of view, and no points of view should be dismissed as invalid. We actively welcome all people to post on this topic and to share their thoughts, and we actively want as *part* of that to discuss what the various Buddhist ideas on the topic are so we can all learn and compare.

Lori - that sounds like a horrific show to watch. And yes I agree with you completely that, if we find that horrific, is it really that far removed to then have a chicken in your back yard as a "pet" and then chop its head off and eat it? I am trying to move in that direction by making sure the animals live long, happy lives and then are ended humanely. Just as I, as a human, hope my life is ended humanely. I would rather die swiftly if "my time has come" vs lingering for six months in agony. So I very much believe in a quick humane end for all living creatures.

I do agree that as a long term end goal that not eating meat is a good idea - but again that is a grey area. Why would you not eat meat and still eat plants? Plants can react to stimulus. They grow towards light. They avoid heat. I have a plant (which sadly died on me) which would close up when you touched it, a "sensitive plant". Why would it be OK to eat that, but not an oyster which is less "sentient"?

I so agree with this, Lisa. If plants could run away from preditors, they most certainly would.

I used to struggle with the idea of eating meat, terribly. It all started when I was 10 and watched my stepfather tie one of our chickens up by its feet and swiftly cut its head off, then I watched in horror as he cut it down and it ran around and around in a spiral until it eventually fell over. My mother then dropped it in a tub of hot water where she pulled all of the feathers out. I can still remember the smell of the wet feathers. She then prepared it and fixed chicken stew for supper. I could not bear to eat that stew, I felt so ill. That is when I vowed to become a vegetarian. But at age 10, I had to eat what my mother put in front of me, so when I turned 16 I stopped eating any kind of meat. I got so thin and weak, that when I got pregnant with my son at 22, I started craving meat and chose to eat it for my son's health as well as my own.

I began at that time to understand that all things that are alive want to stay alive. From plants to insects to fish and mammals. I began to see the poetic beauty in one life form sacrificing itself for the life of another. How altruistic nature is, and how humbling to be a part of it all.

Shay

Indeed, it's true, Lisa. I looked into the Zen long before I discovered the Tao. What I liked about it was the acceptance of all things, and the living in the moment philosophy. As it turned out, the Tao was a better fit for me, because it felt more loose and individual.

I look forward to reading your article!

Shay

I thought I was done on this topic, but just came across another discussion of this that I thought was worth noting. It was an interview (offline) with a Cambodian Buddhist monk and teacher who believes killing is warranted if it is the ONLY way to end injustice, particularly the suppression of dharmic teachings. He refers to the suppression of Buddhist teachings that is going on in Tibet under Chinese rule, and in other places like Myanmar and North Korea. It is his view that violence, including killing, may be necessary in those countries, in order to assure that Buddhist teachings survive. And he feels that the Buddha allowed for this, because the perpetuation of the dharma takes precedence over the first precept.

Many (in fact probably most) Buddhists do not hold this view, holding to the power of non-violent struggle instead. But it is an interesting argument, so I thought worth noting.

There is a sect of people who only eat the fruit of a plant so that the plant remains alive after harvest. They don't eat carrots or other root vegetables because to do so would kill the plant.

I don't know how "sentient" plants are. They react to stimulus, not as a conscious act, but as part of their biological make-up. It's not even an instinct, really, but a trait. There is no pain or emotion or cognition attached. Being heliotropic, for example, only allows the organism to move toward a food source. But they are alive...with life energy. I suppose on some cosmic level, they are sentient beings as well.

But we all need nourishment for survival. I only wish we could nourish ourselves in a humane, compassionate way.

I was raised in a religion that taught it was better to be killed than to kill so if threatened with death, it was better to lie down and die. But then I converted to another religion and now I'm told that we should defend ourselves against evil doing. And there is a difference between innocent blood and evil doers.

Maybe we should just eat the evil doers.

LOL I love that idea Lori!

And really, I would love some day for science to find a way to make all our nutrients in a tasty way so we could eat lovely foods that tasted great, that were not taken from living animals. I would gladly support that kind of research.

I think in a cosmic sense that, if the choice was between someone who loved to kill and went around killing everyone and someone who only killed when forced to and did it rarely, that I would want the rare-killers to survive and propagate. So I would want them to defend themselves and put an end to the killing spree. Otherwise genocides and slaughters go on for years, because nobody stops them.

Hmm... But how can we know this for sure? It seems that basic science was created by humans, based upon being human. If we are the "basis" how do we know anything that is truly beyond our own tests for "sentient" aliveness?

Here's what makes me ask this question...When I was in high school, I'm guessing it was the year 1979, I said to a wise friend, "yeah bees do what they do, but it's not like they are aware of their actions...they just act on instinct." My friend looked me square in the eye and said, "How do you know?" As I looked into his eyes, my mind went blank. I realized that I didn't know. Of course, since then, considerable studies have been conducted on bee behaviors. They have revealed that honey bees make a conscious effort via complicated dance patterns, to convey to other bees where certain flowers are and how to get there.

I do believe that things occur in nature that humans have no inkling of - and that one of them is the "secret life of plants!"

Shay

I agree completely that how plants and animals react is often due to instinct and heck a lot of what HUMANS do is based on instinct. If we draw a hand away from a hot stove that's instinct! That means we are alive and care about ourselves. It should be just as valuable if a plant does something similar ...

It may be that your wishes have been granted.