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#454831 09/25/08 06:34 PM
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oktex Offline OP
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Gina: Excellent newsletter by the way concerning Honor Killings. I'm afraid however that many "normal" Americans who are so righteously offended by what happened to these young ladies are thinking "Never in America" will soon find themselves living on the streets of Bagdad themselves. With the high court�s acceptance of same sex marriages and making the transgendered a protected class next in America will be the legalization of polygamy. Why with the moral decline to anything goes and the liberal courts protecting every kind of behavior under the sun should we not expect to see further erosion of established standards of behavior? �They� may stone people through Islam for family honor but they at least have honor. We on the other hand seem to have lost all sense of it.

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Amoeba
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I don't think there's a direct line between allowing gay marriage and allowing honor killings - though I am aware they happen in the United States. In fact, I would argue they're going in opposite directions. Allowing gay marriage is accepting that commitment and love occurs in ways we have not recognized traditionally, rather than enforcing only traditional codes of morality.

I also am not sure why violence against transgendered people should be permitted.

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That is exactly the point BrandiR! "Ways that we have not recognized traditionally". It is the "old traditional codes of morality" that have sustained this country in its greatness. Some people base their "rights" on religion, ethnicity, gender etc, etc. Whatever that sets them apart as a protected class of people and the rest of us are expected to accept it and raise our children to accept it as "normal". You don't believe that violence against transgendered people should be permitted. I don't believe that people should be murdered in their mother's womb. Others don't believe that it should be wrong for men to have 15 wives and marry 12 year old girls. The point is unless we get back to our moral foundation in this country it will anything goes that the courts will allow.

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What concerns me are organizations like Nambla, which would use positive rulings in polygamy type cases to help bolster their case. Age of sexual consent is definitely an issue. It scares me to think that in a society of anything goes it could end up being where Nambla has rights. I wanted to go to their site just to see where they are at and what they are specifically wanting, but just looking them up makes me feel ill.

I think morality is a touchy issue because we all have different morals. What I might find offensive (such as Nambla) might be perfectly acceptable to the next person. Who gets the ultimate say in what is moral and immoral? Not religion, because we are a society that doesn't really even respect religion anymore. Not only that, but religion just throws in even more arguing over WHOSE religion. Because within different religions are different moral codes.


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oktex Offline OP
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Oh Good Lord, where on earth Toddzgrrl02 do you think morals come from? Every culture of man soon developed a sense of a higher power, which by the way was agreed upon by the ruling class and confirmed by the mainstream masses. IN THIS COUNTRY IT WAS CHRISTIANITY: GOD, JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. So you don't want to talk about religion, then go back to the Nambla web site and get used to what you see because that my dear will soon be main street in the Good Old US of A! You can't have it both ways.

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Moral guidelines come from religions.

Morals have to be engendered in each individual.

There is a difference.

Every person has to make their own decision as to whether their actions are right or wrong. Yes, most religions have a moral code (such as the 10 commandments or Buddhism's precepts) that is written so that people may compare themselves to these guidelines. But the ultimate decision is made within each person's heart.

I am a Christian, yet I have known many people who have claimed that title that committed atrocities. Hitler claimed to be following Jesus when he persecuted the Jews.

And conversely, there are many people that are not Christians that have done a great many good works for mankind. Many physicians are atheists because they cannot reconcile their knowledge of science with a faith based on the unknown (kind of the definition of faith.) But they work to save people.

I would love to be able to convince everyone to share my faith in Jesus, not because I think it will make them better people, but because I believe it means they will get to spend eternity with Him. But it is not my place to judge what others do here on Earth.


Michelle Taylor
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I was going to say, that was kind of a harsh response. I'm a Christian, but I just know how society is. In general, it seems that we are moving away from what our country was founded on and Christianity and its morals are not something our society looks to as a guide. Case in point, abortion. You can probably find both Christian and non-Christians who believe in and support abortion. It's not that I don't want to talk religion. It's that most people don't want to hear it as a viable reason for anything.


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Amoeba
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Very few of the founders were Christian. Most of them were deists. They believe in a higher power but are unsure of what that higher power is like. Deists by definition don't believe in what they call "revealed religions," meaning religions with texts granted to humanity by god through chosen people.

I know it's a common sentiment that we're a Christian nation, but most of that is based on an incomplete understanding of the founding of the country. Ben Franklin was the most outspoken deist among the founders. He definitely was not Christian. Others - Jefferson, Adams in particular - were deists, and we know that from their writings. When founding documents say "God," they don't typically mean the god of any specific religion. They mean "higher power."

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oktex Offline OP
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I really don't know why I bother. We know from the "last book" what happens in the end and from the way some of you are talking, it isn't long in coming. The End!

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OKtex, this is not a religious forum.

This is about Women's issues.

Please refrain from further inflammatory comments against other users on this forum.


Michelle Taylor
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