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#416291 05/08/08 04:08 PM
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Anda Offline OP
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I haven't read all of the back topics, so I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet. If it has, I hope we can discuss it again for my benefit. wink

I think that the single most detrimental thing in the worldwide Pagan community is a lack of a central organization. I know, I know. That seems completely contradictory to the principles of most Pagan religions (although some, like Asatru, lend themselves to a more conservative structure). But hear me out...

If there were a single Pagan organization, let's call it the Universal Pagan Voice or UPV, it would serve as a focal point for Pagans everywhere. The UPV would employ a lot of people, have a lot of impact, and get a lot of press. Whenever the UPV asked a question, legislators would feel compelled to smile for the news crews and answer. If someone had a question about Paganism, the UPV would give a diplomatic, well-considered answer. In essence, the organization would be a visible spearhead for the Pagan community and would bring weight to the issues that are important to us.

There are things that Pagans need that the UPV could provide. If anyone remembers KAPs, you know that it's possible to get references for people who are Pagan-friendly: doctors, lawyers, employers, etc. UPV could connect us to those people. UPV lawyers could take on cases of import that would otherwise go unfunded, setting legal precedent to protect our rights. UPV offshoots could provide grant writing courses for Pagan churches, support for Pagan schools, even organize Pagan festivals so that they aren't so helter-skelter.

Most importantly, the UPV could train our clergy. I'm not suggesting that we start a Pagan seminary with a guy in a pointy hat demanding that his students believe A, B and C, but never D. There's more to being clergy than having beliefs. I think they should be educated in world religions. They serve as support people in their community, so they should be trained in social work: how to recognize abuse, how to counsel couples, etc. In this way, we would all know that a card-carying clergyperson didn't just fall off the snake oil wagon. It's something we don't talk about much, but there's a lot of abuse in clergy positions, especially in isolated areas. Anyone can say, "I'm a Priest(ess)," and there's no reason not to believe him/her. But so many of those people have been thieves, abusers and manipulators. Maybe a certification program would lessen that.

Anyway, I'm getting long-winded and I don't mean to be. I simply wanted to put my thoughts out there and hear what you have to say about it. Do you think this would help Pagans become a socio-political force? Would it bring positive attention? Do you think it'll ever happen? I can't wait to see your responses. smile

Anda

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Some of what you say is valid, but the benefits don't appear to outweigh the risks, in my opinion.


it just sounds too much like organized religion to me and that is something I want no part of. I fully respect what ever path a person walks if it works for them, but organized religion, of any flavor, is not my path. I'm perfectly happy with pagans having their own, individual voices, to raise, or not, as they wish.

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I'm not completely skeptical of an organization like the UPV that you mention, but I just don't think it is possible anytime soon. I think organizations that fight for our rights like Lady Liberty League have much more of a chance of succeeding in the long run.

Even Pagans who share religious beliefs may have very different political and social views, so it is hard to imagine one group that could unite Pagans of every persuasion.


Trish Deneen
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It's true that Pagans can run the gamut from more conservative to more liberal. However, no candidate has ever weighed in on the subject of *Pagan rights* as part of a campaign, and is free to ignore the questions of small institutions. Only by having a single unifying face and name would Pagans ever get straight answers about a legislator's opinions, or have the power to lobby for beneficial legislation (or against harmful legislation). Right now, organized religion has enough power to do this, and we simply do not. And I believe that, by remaining scattered and arguing amongst ourselves, Pagan followers give up the ability to have that power.

I wish that religion were a private matter and that we didn't need to be a social or political force. But the fact is that religion plays a part in all aspects of life. We stand to lose so much, given the right circumstances, and don't have any way to defend ourselves. (I give my respect to the LLL, but they are a relatively small organization that has not made protecting our rights on a large scale a priority. In addition, because they are church-affiliated, I would be concerned about a conflict of interest where theologies are concerned.)

It is true that forming a large entity (like my mythical UPV) could cause problems if done incorrectly. If it's made into a religious group, rather than a social one, it could hinder individual voice. However, there is so much abuse and uncertainty in the Pagan community, and so many wrongs that go unaddressed because of fear and ignorance, that I feel it's imperitive to work toward a unified front.

We've relied on individuals to be our voice for the entire existance of our religions. And right now, Pagans are still persecuted, still threatened, still afraid. We're free on paper (in the US and UK). Individuals won't come together without a figurehead. That's a lesson that's been proven throughout history. Until someone is willing to be a social leader, the most cooperation individuals will put forth are the small Pagan festivals that crop up here and there. An old college professor once told me that those people who are wise enough to stay away from politics doom themselves to live under someone else's vote. And I believe that to be true.

Anyway, thank you for your responses. smile I hope to hear from more people.

Anda

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Could you please clarify what abuse and uncertainty in the Pagan community you are talking about? If someone was breaking a law, the first thing I would do is contact law enforcement not a leader of any unified religious organization.

What do you feel are "Pagan Rights" and how do you feel they are different from civil rights? Do you think organizations such as the ACLU are capable of defending such rights?

Many Pagans really feel no desire to be part of one large collective, and I don't believe that makes them doomed for anything.

History has proven a great deal of things and can be argued for or against any topic at hand. There are social leaders that people rallied under only to find they have been betrayed.

I know Pagans who use "history" to say there is nothing wrong with having the 10 Commandments in public buildings and other Pagans who feel that goes against separation of church and state. The reality is that Pagans just won't agree on what "rights" they think they should have. Whose rights then will this "one leader" be representing?

I appreciate you posting this topic. It is nice to have all types of conversations on this forum.

Last edited by TrishPaganEd; 05/09/08 02:11 PM.

Trish Deneen
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Thank you, Trish, for your kind words. smile I abhor political discussion, for the most part, and never like to bring it up. However, when I find myself in a new place, this is one of the topics I like to discuss. I think a person's reactions reveal quite a bit about how they converted, how their life has gone, etc.

I am essentially a small-town girl, although I now live in a city. In conservative areas like mine, and towns up and down my home state, where I often visited, there is a similar dynamic. If there is a Pagan community at all, it is "run" by a single clergyperson who simply declares himself or herself a Priest(ess). Because there is no regulation of clergy in Pagan religions, and no requirements, that declaration makes that person as legitimate of clergy as it gets. However, I have witnessed firsthand, and counseled victims secondhand, and I know that many of these "clergypeople" are abusive (mentally or physically), sexual predators, power junkies, or fanatics who encourage hatred and violence. I can't say how often this happens in large cities, where there would be another choice for clergy. But in small towns, especially in conservative areas, some Pagans find themselves following less than admirable people. (In one case I know of second-hand, the victim was threatened with being outed to her family if she didn't comply.)

Having even the most basic training to certify clergy might deter many of those who are seeking instant power. And it would help those who are serious about living a life of service to perform their duties properly. Let's face it: a Priestess can have the best intentions in the world, but those good intentions aren't going to tell her how to give couple's and individual counseling, how to recognize red flags, or what to do when those flags are flying. Good intentions also don't mean a person knows how to network with other religious leaders, deal with the media in a proper manner, or even handle group dynamics. What that Priestess needs is a formal education.

I also believe that the fear that keeps the majority of Pagans in the broom closet is connected in some measurable way to the fact that, if they do come out, they'll be alone. We've already established that local covens and circles can potentially do more harm than help. Smaller social groups, such as church-linked organizations or campus-sponsored groups, may be unheard of, or even nonexistant. Put a Pagan organization on CNN and every Pagan in the country will know it exists. Every Pagan will know that this one organization will provide the support he or she needs, even if that just means giving Paganism social legitimacy in his/her area. (I'd compare it to being a Christian in an entirely Jewish city where no Christian church exists. Put a church there, and they'll band together, start planning events, give each other support. Without a church, where will they go? Each feels like the only one and doesn't want to be the one to take the heat of the spotlight.)

Anyway, just my observations and opinions... Thanks again for participating. I thought your response was interesting.

Anda

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Anda,

Thank you so much for your reply. I have a better idea of where you are coming from now. I admit sometimes when I hear or see the word "persecuted" it tends to get my dander up, so I hope I didn't come off argumentative. In my early Pagan days, I ran with a lot of people who were always being persecuted, mainly in their own minds, but I see what you mean now.

I too have always disliked that anyone can claim to be Lady So and So or High Priest Gandalf the Great, etc. I've heard people actually say, "He's Pagan, so he must be nice" or "He's a Native American and they all love Mother Earth." I haven't counseled victims like you, but a few times I predicted that some leaders were frauds or predators and unfortunately turned out to be right (usually after I was shown the door for questioning authority).

It is incredibly frustrating because the general public in a small town atmosphere like you mention would have the luxury of going to the police whereas a Pagan would feel that they might not be listened too, or worse, harassed by law enforcement and/or told "Well, that's what you get for messing around with a cult."

I know that it seems like we are taking baby steps to having our voices heard, but I do see positive change even in this atmosphere under Bush.

More of us are becoming educated enough to know the questions to ask of leaders about their background and credentials, but as you say, that doesn't help the small town Pagan with no alternative.

I admit that politically I lean towards a government that interferes very little in our lives, so the idea of having one organization to decide on what makes a clergy person kind of gets under my skin. I do live in an area where I have a solid choice of educated Pagan clergy however, and I realize that is a luxury.

I also admit that I haven't come up with a viable alternative except to support the organizations we already have and believe in. I'm a firm believer in the power of the weakest member of any group. If we have solid small groups supporting this unified organization, then I would be all for it, especially if those groups already had a clergy/counseling program in place for their own branch of Paganism.

I know that LLL is religiously affiliated and web resources like Witchvox seem like a drop in the bucket, but 30 years ago their accomplishments would have been unheard of, and 30 years isn't really that long to have come as far as we have. Even the fact that we have Pagan seminaries is incredible.

I agree with you about the broom closet issue. It would be good if every town had a safe haven for people to gather. However, there are Christian churches that are very isolated and may not have to register with a single organization except the government. So, I'm not sure how we could assure safety just because a Pagan church is registered with an organization, but there may be a better chance of keeping track of predators.

Forgive me, I'm just rambling in writing. I don't disagree with you. I'm just working out the logistics of such a plan but need to sign off for now.

Thanks again for such an interesting discussion.


Trish Deneen
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