BellaOnline Forums Family Early Childhood Spanking illegal in California?

What are your thoughts about the recent California proposal? What about spanking as a means of discipline in general?
Cyn

I saw that and immediately thought "If only they had that rule when I was a child!" My mom believed strongly in spanking and one time hit me with my sneaker because she was angry with me. I guess her hand hurt or something. I really don't think deliberately causing pain repeatedly to a child is a healthy way for them to learn anything besides "causing pain is what people do". The only reason my mom stopped hitting me is that I turned 13 or 14 and got taller than her, and stood up to her. So she only stopped because she was afraid I might defend myself.

I have mixed feelings about spanking as discipline. I think that humans are particularly bad at using negative punishment in general. And there are a number of good arguments against spanking and other physical punishment. On the other hand, it is just a tool that can be used well or misused and making physical punishment illegal just reduces the available toolkit.

With me, my parents choose a couple of key safety rules (like don't touch electric cords) and if I broke them, I was immediately lightly spanked and redirected such that it seemed like a natural consequence more than a punishment. I remember having a lot more freedom when visiting non-childproofed places than other kids my age and I don't believe it was inappropriate. On the other hand, my younger sister was spanked more often out of frustration with inappropriate behavior and without her having the sense of consequence. I think it had nothing but negative effects.

I was really struck by a news story I saw where one of the proponents said the main value/enforcement method was that it gave a parent who didn't believe in spanking more leverage in convincing the other parent not to spank. I think that if parents have such a fundamental difference in parenting, they have bigger problems than a law can fix. I'm also concerned that it might encourage parents who don't have a good set of parenting tools to resort to shaking and other potentially more damaging but legal methods. I really worry that it's just a band-aid that does nothing to fix the real problem of parents who at some point don't feel like they have any other option beyond physical punishment.

Julie

Thank you for sharing ladies! You have both made some very good points.

I'm of the opinion that these types of laws don't reach the intended people. Child abusers will continue to abuse behind closed doors (as they do now, even though this is against the law) and the mom who is grocery shopping and has told her child for the third time: "If you don't stop messing with the apple display I'll have to spank your hand." and then follows through with the discipline, will face up to $1000.00 in fines and/or up to a year in prison.

I was spanked as a child twice. Both times the behavior ended right then. Before I had children I was strongly against any physical punishment. Now that I have five children I have found that some things work some of the time with all of the children and some things work all of the time with none of the children.

Cyn

As a teacher and a mother of two, I'm absolutely against physical punishment of any kind. I recommend neverhitachild.org and nospank.net for those who are researching this topic. Oh..and I think this passage is really powerful and hope you'll take a minute to read it:

Never Violence

a story told by Astrid Lindgren
[Author of Pippi Longstocking]

"Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence." In 1978, Astrid Lindgren received the German Book Trade Peace Prize for her literary contributions. In acceptance, she told the following story.

"When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor's wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child, she didn't believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking - the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, "Mama, I couldn't find a switch, but here's a rock that you can throw at me."

All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the child's point of view: that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it with a stone. And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind herself forever: never violence. And that is something I think everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery - one can raise children into violence."

I think that too often we fail to feel situations "from the child's point of view," and that failure leads us to teach our children other than what we think we're teaching them.

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I was disciplined by smacking when I was a child, as were all of my friends. If I got a spanking, I knew I had done wrong and even though it hurt at the time, I never felt fear for my parents or dread. Discipline for me was usually verbal, but some things (such as if my parents were scared because I'd been missing for hours or something) provoked a hard slap. It usually meant I never did it again!I knew in no uncertain terms that I'd gone too far!
I grew up into a well adjusted person and suffered no ill effects from having been given occasional slaps. My first son was a nightmare. Our house had to be bare almost to keep him out of trouble. He had to be watched almost continuously because at the slightest chance he would be off, running as fast as he could. He got the occasional smack on the bottom and he's also a well adjusted, caring young man now. He got one hard smack at the age of four. We had just moved across the other side of the world to a completely different culture. He got away from me in a shop. I was terrified. When I found him, half an hour later I admit, he got a hard slap on the bottom. I cried as much as he did but I tell you what, for the first time in his life, he understood the anguish he had caused me. He never ran away again. My other son was a model child and never got a slap once, stern words were enough.
I'm not saying I condone smacking, but let's be honest here. If you have a child that simply will not respond to all of the non violent (for want of a better word!) strategies, sometimes all that's left for you to try is a quick slap. Sometimes a quick smack on the bottom gets the message across when stern words do not work. I have found that different discipline works at different stages of life. Once my children reached the age of five I found words and withdrawal of favourite toys for a while worked better. And so on.
I believe that some children respond very well to explanations and stern voices. I also believe that others respond only to a (sparingly give) smack. At times it IS necessary, depending on the child in question.
I am a very caring person and I love my kids to pieces and respect them totally. I would never ever smack someone else's child no matter what they did.
I was smacked, I did smack (occasionally), I don't regret it. I am not violent and neither are any of my friends or my children.

Hmm..if I could manage a group of 30 children without smacking them around as a teacher, I have trouble understanding why managing one or two is difficult without physical punishment.

When parents hit their kids, they're essentially playing the role of the "bully" in their household.

I won't get into all the research behind using alternatives to corporal punishment. I'll just refer you to neverhitachild.org or nospank.net. The evidence is overwhelming.

By the way, if you're caring for someone else's child, would you smack them for doing something wrong? Probably not. Why do so many Americans treat their own children worse than they would their neighbor's? It's true. Every time you hit your child, you're having a negative impact on your relationship with him/her and a bit of trust is lost...You're also passing on the behavior of hitting when you're mad which often continues into adulthood--especially with boys who are hit more than girls--in many cases.

Like I said...if you have an open mind, do some reading on the issue. It's important for people's attitudes to change about this topic in order to have a long-lasting effect on the violence in our society today.

Hitting people is wrong, and children are people too.

You may not have seen the ramifications, but they were there. How would you feel if you were hit when you made a mistake? Remember that if the behavior disappears, it doesn't mean it "worked" the way you think it did.

Children learn what they live. Smacking them, hitting them, spanking them--whatever you want to call it--does not fit in with respectful parenting. It can't because you're modeling hitting. It's that simple.

I'm glad your kids turned out fine. I was raised in a very chaotic home and I seem "fine" too. I guess it depends on your definition...

Jan

Jan~
Thank you for your views. I always appreciate your passion on a topic. I love living in a country where ideas and opinions can be shared freely. I still believe that unless you are in someone else's shoes it is very difficult to appreciate their circumstances and choices. Thank God we still have the right to raise our children in the best way we know how.
Another issue that is raised with this topic is the enforceability of this law. It seems much time and money would be spent without the ability to enforce the law. As most discipline takes place at home.
Cyn

I am not a spanker, I think it's wrong and abuse at it's core.I think it's a way for parents to feel better and beat up on the little one, parent don't allow their children to hit them so why hit the child, yada yada..and in that respect this potential law is great. OTOH, as a homeschooling mother ANY law that tells a parent how they can and cannot raise or discipline a child scares me. What is next, ya know? CA already has [censored] homeschooling laws I don't want to see them go into [censored] parenting laws too.

Meg

Yes, I enjoy discussing issues like this one since I'm an advocate for children.

As for being in someone else's shoes, I've worked with children who were out of control since I have always chosen to work at low-income schools where behavior problems can be an issue.

Interestingly enough, these children responded to the same things my own children do--they need to feel "heard" as well as loved and respected. Where does hitting kids fit into modeling love and respect? It simply doesn't. It's also interesting to note that there is a direct correlation between corporal punishment and violent behavior. Sure, there are exceptions this issue has been studied regarding prisoners who exhibit violent behavior. Also, I have always seen more hitting come from children who are hit compared to the children in our AP groups who are never struck in any way. I see a difference in the way they interact with their parents *and* in the way they interact with their peers and siblings.

I still am trying to fathom when people decide that it's okay to hit children. Most people hitting babies is wrong but something changes when they can walk--as if they all of the sudden should exhibit perfect behavior. How sad.

Some people in our country actually advocate hitting babies, by the way:

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Here is an exerpt from the Pearl's book:

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I wrote about the Pearls, there is a boycott against them in the homeschooling world.

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Great article Meg! I'd never heard of them before, thanks for the link! Their kind of punishment is considered abuse and is already against the law.

I guess it comes down to: What is child abuse? Some people think it is as little as a spank to the behind, others believe it is "whipping", "slapping" or "beating" a child still others may argue that the typical American diet or the overuse of media as a babysitter is a form of abuse.

Should they all be against the law?
And how are we going to enforce it?

I feel you are patonizing me here.
As a matter of fact I do teach a class of two to three year olds and have done for several years. I have years of experience with children, including the sick of all ages and the mentally ill. In a nutshell, most of my life has been spent caring for other people; in sickness and in health. Having been smacked as a child didn't stop me from being a good person and I have never 'bullied' anyone in my life. I advocate for fairness always.
I am also very well aware that other people's children behave differently at school than at home. That you cannot surely deny.
If you do have children, I wonder what sort of children they were... as I said, my first was a horror; A wonderful, intelligent boy but a real handful. For the first 2.7 yrs of his life he woke for 2 to 3 hrs every single night. Imagine how tired my husband and myself were as parents. Plus, I was breast feeding another baby by the 2.5 yr point. We were exhausted most of them time. I am human and as I said, I have smacked my sons bottom on the odd occasion. I did not abuse him, and smacking is not corporal punishment. I stand by my decision to do so on those occasions.
I do not believe in repeated smacking don't get me wrong. I respect that you do not approve of smacking but you must also respect that others do feel it necessary at times. As I said, circumstances, children, adults, whatever - all have a bearing on how things work out at any given time.
And speaking of research.... yes, I am open minded and yes I will read up a little. However, having seen how society has deteriorated over the last ten years or so because of the rights for this group, that group etc., I wonder how much good our 'good intentions' actually are.

It's sickening that whipping babies is considered good to some people. I'm not from the US and I have been living in Asia for over 12yrs now so I'm not in tune with how things are in the UK but I certainly have heard about some weird cults where you guys live. It can only be described as sick. They should be locked away for life for even suggesting that sort of thing; it's insane.

On the subject of child abuse, I think it means different things to different people.

Child abuse to me is not only a physical thing. You can be a person who never ever smacks a child and yet subject that child to emotional abuse - and this can be in many forms. Often the abuser is not even aware of the damage they are causing. I suffered emotional abuse myself and have been suicidal 3 times in my 45 yrs of life and have had years of therapy to undo the damage done by my mother. Strangely enough it was my father who spanked me. My mother used emotional tactics to control me and they are what scarred me (and before anyone challenges that - 3 psychiatrists have said exactly the same thing and they were good ones (I have a medical background as well as a teaching one) - sorry - I just want to be clear here about medical knowledge ha ha)) Having been through therapy and come out the other side a changed woman I now realise that she never meant me any harm but even so, she caused me some huge problems.
To be honest I feel that emotional abuse is far more serious because it's harder to spot and often doesn't become apparent for years.
I had a friend who's parents seemed great on the surface and yet the mother put my friend under such emotional stress that she committed suicide at age 16. My husband's friend committed suicide age 16 (in front of my husband at school) after having been put under so much pressure by his parents that he was terrified of failing his exams and so failing his parents.

What laws are in place for these sort of people? How the hell do you enforce them? I have no idea. I just know that from what I have learned myself; spanking occasionally (light not hard)usually ends when a child is old enough to be disciplined by words. Emotional abuse continues for years and years.
What to do?

[quote=JanZeiger]
As for being in someone else's shoes, I've worked with children who were out of control since I have always chosen to work at low-income schools where behavior problems can be an issue.

I come from that low income bracket of people you talk about. Low income does not automatically mean that there will be more behavioural problems. I certainly knew of many 'bad' eggs at my school, but the good far outweighed them thank goodness.

I now work at a very prestigious school and I have to say that I am shocked at some of the behaviour I have seen. In fact, some of the worst behaviour comes from the sons of ministers! No joke!

I think that you and I could have some very heated discussions (and some very productive ones too)Jan

No offence intended and hope none taken. We're two very similar people in the fact that we have strong views and two very different backgrounds I think.

Dolly Dimple~
I am heart broken by the pain you and your husband have experienced. You are in my prayers for long lasting and continued recovery, good for you getting the help you needed to get past the issues and forgive your mother!
We all make mistakes, not one of us is perfect and I personally don't know one person who sets out to screw up their child on purpose, we all to the best we can with the tools we were given and I'm sure your mother is no exception.

I noticed that you are new to the forum boards, thank you for choosing early childhood to make your debut...WELCOME WELCOME :-)
CYn

I was only speaking of the case here in the states. Unfortunately, our low-income schools often are filled with children who are acting out. Not because there is anything wrong with the children but because they're needs haven't been met at home OR at school. These kids face all sorts of issues and many have learned to be "tough" which transfers over to school and affects their behavior.

When I got out of college, I got my first choice--a low income school that none of the other new teachers wanted. They actually apologized and felt bad for me because they didn't understand why ANY teacher would want to be there.

I'm talking about having kids come to my classroom who had thrown desks, etc during the previous year and having them work well with me. Why? Because of my discipline style. I was the teacher who got many "difficult" kids because of my gift for dealing with them.

I have two children and, believe me, my oldest is challenging. He's a gifted, visual/spatial extrovert!! He's a blast but man oh man...is he ever strong-willed. But that's okay. I'm hwith him during the day and our bond is strong. He's involved with activities in the community and does great behavior-wise as long as he's not bored, etc...

I forget which positive discipline author said this but it's wonderful and so true:

"Every misbehavior is an unmet need."

Here are some of my favorite discipline books in case anyone wants to discipline without hurting their kids:

How to Talk So Kids will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline

The Discipline Book (by Dr. Sears)

And sorry if you thought I was patronizing you. I'm merely an advocate for children and feel the need to speak for them on this issue.

Thank you for sharing the titles Jan! I'll definitely check them out. I'm glad the children have you in their corner...you are a force to be reckoned with my friend I'm sure God is smiling down on you, for the work you are doing to protect His little ones!

Next to hating the idea of hurting my children...my biggest argument with spanking is this: How can I possibly expect my children to keep their "hands to themselves" if I can't do the same? And believe me...with 2 two year olds it is already a struggle enough for me to keep them from mauling eachother without me setting a bad example! They are like to puppies wrestling around...which soon escalates to a brawl. Oh my, have I got my hands full!

Cyn

I have seen children spanked and children beaten, i spanked my kids and by a certain age all that was needed was the LOOK, thats all it took was the LOOK,

Welcome Rosie! I don't have "The Look" at least I don't think I do, LOL. I get quiet and take a deep breath before addressing the issue. The children all look at me expectantly when I do this....I'm usually talking up a storm so they know someones about to get a talking to....

Cyn

I find nothing wrong with a spat on the hand when a child, who is not yet capable of reasoning, is "exploring" something dangerous (electrical outlets, hot stoves, etc.). I have one child for whom tone of voice, a look, simple redirection and time outs work wonders; and another child for whom this doesn't work at all. Each child is different; and parents should be permitted to respond to the child as needed--within reason.

The remainder of my comments are off topic, but relate to the discussion above:

DollyDimple's comments regarding behavior hold just as true in the states. Low income does not automatically equate with behavioral problems nor does it mean a child's emotional or physical (or academic or any other) needs aren't being met. That's an erroneous assumption that many people, especially educators, make (its the whole "Culture of Poverty" fallacy that's supported by old and very poorly done "research"). Behavioral issues transcend income (and racial/ethnic and gender and language, etc., etc.) "barriers" and appear in each and every strata of society.

No one "group" is any more prone to "behavioral" problems than any other.

However, children will "behave" as you "expect" them to behave. Therefore, if you believe the children in your class have issues and you repeatedly tell them they hav issues, they're likely to live up to your expectations.

Dr. Lynn~
Thank you so much for dropping in to give the professional perspective. Many people look to their peds for direction and its handy to have our own here at Bella to contribute to our forums....
Cyn

I've a Ph.D., Cyn - not an M.D. - Dr. Gwen is our Peds person here, I think. I come with an educational/psych background.

8o)

O OOps sorry!! I still appreciate you taking the time to popover!
Cyn

I should explain that I'm no longer in the classroom and have chosen to homeschool my own children because of major problems I see with school. However, as my children get older, I hope to start working with low-income students again by volunteering my time as a mentor and/or tutor.

I agree with you about "keep your hands to yourself" because children really do learn what they live. We can't say hitting is wrong and then hit others. Then we become hyppocrates.

I'm glad you started this discussion. Definitely something that needs to be addressed.

Lynn,

I wasn't saying that all children from low-income families have behavior problems. I am simply talking about the number of referrals and violent behaviors at one school compared to another. Both schools I taught at were the ones with some of the highest number of discipline problems in the county. These kids lived in poverty and had to fight to survive...

Have you read much about Ruby Payne? The Culture of Poverty is very, very real. These kids grow up seeing shootings in their own neighborhoods and more...it's a different world--without question.

Jan

I've never been fond of the Drs. Sears, regardless of topics they're covering.

I like Four Weeks to a Better-Behaved Child : Breakthrough Discipline Techniques that Work -- for Children Age 2 to 10
by Cristine Chandler, Laura McGrath.

Dr. Chandler sets up step-by-step instructions to help parents foster good behavior in their children based on the premise that children behave well when they understand clearly what is expected of them (in other words, they do their best to live up to your expectations... if those are positive, they're positive and vice versa).

She covers:
Why punishment is often the least effective way to discipline children.
Why anger never works.
Why "time-out" works only sometimes--and what to do instead.
How to use consequences to encourage--and get--good behavior.

I hope you'll check out Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. It's an amazing book!!

I did great in terms of classroom management at my school. My point was that children who are in "survival mode" do indeed exhibit different behaviors than their middle-class counterparts. I'm not saying the behaviors can't be extinguished eventually with a great teacher who is able to build a sense of community in the classroom.

I was talking about the Culture of Poverty--the fact that children living in poverty have very different lives than other children, and these differences result in different needs. I'm not saying we should have low expectations, but we should be honest about what kinds of problems these children are dealing with in their daily lives.

School segregation is alive and well in many parts of the country with the "haves" and the "have-nots" being separated just as they've always been...Behavior issues are magnified when these children are separated from their middle-class pears. In the Culture of Poverty, children learn not to back down because it will show that they are weak. Compliance is a sign of weakness rather than a strength.

What I'm saying is that these children are living in a very different world which can result in difficulties in school--not to mention that behavior problems often arise when a child's academic needs aren't being met (as is the case with many of these children).

I recommend any of Alfie Kohn's books for teachers OR parents who are interested in a new way of thinking about children and discipline.

And How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk is a well-written, easy to understand *quick* read that I recommend often..

About smacking, I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old who are both strong willed but have never been struck for any behavior. There are other alternatives but it's easier to hit than to redirect.

Jan said..... (sorry - I don't know how to make those little inserts you make Jan lol)

I was talking about the Culture of Poverty--the fact that children living in poverty have very different lives than other children, and these differences result in different needs. I'm not saying we should have low expectations, but we should be honest about what kinds of problems these children are dealing with in their daily lives.

May I present another dimension...

Children who live in poverty do have different lives to many people but they are not the only ones who have a different life. I am in daily contact with some children who come from insanely rich families ( kids of 10 who have their own Hummer (huge off road vehicles - I think that's what they're called :-)), driver and personal maids etc). Some of these kids are brought up to mix and treat others well. Some have some awful problems. We think that people who have money are all fine but that's not always the case. I know of so many middle class, rich, royal kids even, who hardly see their parents, have no one to talk to about their problems, never get to play with friends they make at school because they are only allowed to play with the 'right sort' of kids. I could tell you so much about some of these supposed 'happy' kids.
I don't think it matters what 'class' you belong to regarding behaviour problems. When I was young I used to wish my family were rich so that we could eat steak instead of tinned meatballs lol. Having seen what position and money do to some kids, I'm glad that I wasn't ha ha.

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for your input. I like the sound of the book by Chandler & McGrath.
I especially like the part where you mention using consequences to encourage good behaviour. I have been using that strategy for quite some time with children and I do find it works very well.
I will go in search of that book. Thanks!!

Anne

When do I get to change from Newbie on here lol? Having said that, it kind of makes me feel like a youngster again ha ha.

This topic has certainly kicked up a storm!!!
It's obviously one which will not be sorted out in a few weeks either! Good choice of topic Cynthia! Well done :-)

It's interesting to see the cultural differences coming through in the discussion. Fascinating for sure. Wish there were people from other parts of the world participating to add an even bigger dimension. I'm a Brit in Asia but I can only tell things from what I've learned over the years here. A true Asian, African, from anywhere that isn't 'western' piont of view would be great.
Fingers crossed lol.

Anne.

Yes, I've read Payne--and many other, better researched works. The "culture of poverty" has no firm basis in reality. Studies have found that we tend to remember stereotype-confirming behavior in those who are considered different, while ignoring the many times members of our own group did the same things, because in the latter instance, such behavior doesn't trigger a pre-existing mental schema, or set of beliefs, that can be applied to explain the behavior. So the middle and upper class can do all the same things as the lower class, but still be viewed as individuals, while the lower class who do anything negative are viewed through a group lens. Social conditioning is critical here: by training our minds to not only see differences--which they would see anyway, and categorize as a matter of evolutionary psychology--but also to attach dualistic value judgments to those categories in terms of better/worse, superior/inferior, etc., the culture in which we live has led us away from the ability to think critically, and ultimately in a rational manner about these kinds of things.

Children don't need to be "given a fish" (have someone else meet their every need). They need support and example regarding how to fish for themselves. Survival and independence are good things; not bad. Why would you want to extinguish these characteristics in children; if instead you can help them find different ways to manifest them.

Okay..nevermind..I'm feeling that it's futile at this point to keep contributing to this discussion.

Disagreement on these issues would only be natural, I should think. Though I highly recommend "Uprooting Racism: How White People Can Work for Racial Justice" by Paul Kivel to those who have been trained in the "Culture of Poverty." This book provides an alternate lens and may give you greater insight into the issue of group-think and the dangers of stereotyping behaviors.

I do feel, however, that what is important for readers to take away from "this" discussion (the one related to "spanking" that is) is that there is more than one take on the issue; that discipline comes in many, many forms; that each child is an individual; and that no one method will work for all children.

I think everyone is missing the point here. It has been pointed out that spanking is controversial and parents have differing views. However, the government should not be intervening to tell parents whether or not they can spank. Child abuse is illegal, spanking is not abuse. I think some people are using faulty logic in linking the two concepts. Wouldn't resources be better used to find those that are ABUSING their children, not those that give a random spanking? This whole thing makes me angry and sick. I am a mother of two, and frankly I will punish my kids the way I see fit so that they are happy, healthy, productive adults. And if there are "bleeding hearts" out there that don't agree with my tactics, I could care less. Stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours.

Sarah~
Welcome to the forum!
You are right, this is not a question of whether or not parents should spank, but whether or not it should be made illegal. In my opinion, most constituents probably feel as you do (Stay out of my business/don't want goverment policies interfering with parenting preferences) and will vote against it at poll time.
Thank you for taking the time to post!
Cyn

Punishment does not work. That's why this and other forums are full with "I tried everything, nothing works." When the child changes the behavior it is for the wrong reason, and so it causes emotional damage. Punishment, including spanking, doesn't work because it creates behavior by fear instead of by love and understanding. Creating a law about it is a good start. Even if it doesn't directly reach those who need it the most, parents on the fence about it, will think twice before they spank, and start reading books or taking classes on how to raise child without punishment, threat or any infliction of pain. All those teach fear and aggression.

I would hope that over time parents will face some learning requirments (just like plumbers and other professionals). We; all love our children. If we knew that there is a much more effective way to have our children act well and flourish, we would want it. Well, there IS a way. I learned it and apply it succesfully. For example, the book, Raising Our Children, Raising Oursevles is about understanding how to respond to a child such that he behaves well, not because he fears you, because he wants to, of his own free will. Life with chidlren who behave well from their own free will is peaceful and fun. I hope this law passes and is followed with educational requirements.