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Joined: Nov 2006
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Jellyfish
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What are your thoughts about the recent California proposal? What about spanking as a means of discipline in general?
Cyn

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I saw that and immediately thought "If only they had that rule when I was a child!" My mom believed strongly in spanking and one time hit me with my sneaker because she was angry with me. I guess her hand hurt or something. I really don't think deliberately causing pain repeatedly to a child is a healthy way for them to learn anything besides "causing pain is what people do". The only reason my mom stopped hitting me is that I turned 13 or 14 and got taller than her, and stood up to her. So she only stopped because she was afraid I might defend myself.


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I have mixed feelings about spanking as discipline. I think that humans are particularly bad at using negative punishment in general. And there are a number of good arguments against spanking and other physical punishment. On the other hand, it is just a tool that can be used well or misused and making physical punishment illegal just reduces the available toolkit.

With me, my parents choose a couple of key safety rules (like don't touch electric cords) and if I broke them, I was immediately lightly spanked and redirected such that it seemed like a natural consequence more than a punishment. I remember having a lot more freedom when visiting non-childproofed places than other kids my age and I don't believe it was inappropriate. On the other hand, my younger sister was spanked more often out of frustration with inappropriate behavior and without her having the sense of consequence. I think it had nothing but negative effects.

I was really struck by a news story I saw where one of the proponents said the main value/enforcement method was that it gave a parent who didn't believe in spanking more leverage in convincing the other parent not to spank. I think that if parents have such a fundamental difference in parenting, they have bigger problems than a law can fix. I'm also concerned that it might encourage parents who don't have a good set of parenting tools to resort to shaking and other potentially more damaging but legal methods. I really worry that it's just a band-aid that does nothing to fix the real problem of parents who at some point don't feel like they have any other option beyond physical punishment.

Julie

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Jellyfish
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Thank you for sharing ladies! You have both made some very good points.

I'm of the opinion that these types of laws don't reach the intended people. Child abusers will continue to abuse behind closed doors (as they do now, even though this is against the law) and the mom who is grocery shopping and has told her child for the third time: "If you don't stop messing with the apple display I'll have to spank your hand." and then follows through with the discipline, will face up to $1000.00 in fines and/or up to a year in prison.

I was spanked as a child twice. Both times the behavior ended right then. Before I had children I was strongly against any physical punishment. Now that I have five children I have found that some things work some of the time with all of the children and some things work all of the time with none of the children.

Cyn

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As a teacher and a mother of two, I'm absolutely against physical punishment of any kind. I recommend neverhitachild.org and nospank.net for those who are researching this topic. Oh..and I think this passage is really powerful and hope you'll take a minute to read it:

Never Violence

a story told by Astrid Lindgren
[Author of Pippi Longstocking]

"Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence." In 1978, Astrid Lindgren received the German Book Trade Peace Prize for her literary contributions. In acceptance, she told the following story.

"When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor's wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child, she didn't believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking - the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, "Mama, I couldn't find a switch, but here's a rock that you can throw at me."

All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the child's point of view: that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it with a stone. And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind herself forever: never violence. And that is something I think everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery - one can raise children into violence."

I think that too often we fail to feel situations "from the child's point of view," and that failure leads us to teach our children other than what we think we're teaching them.

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I was disciplined by smacking when I was a child, as were all of my friends. If I got a spanking, I knew I had done wrong and even though it hurt at the time, I never felt fear for my parents or dread. Discipline for me was usually verbal, but some things (such as if my parents were scared because I'd been missing for hours or something) provoked a hard slap. It usually meant I never did it again!I knew in no uncertain terms that I'd gone too far!
I grew up into a well adjusted person and suffered no ill effects from having been given occasional slaps. My first son was a nightmare. Our house had to be bare almost to keep him out of trouble. He had to be watched almost continuously because at the slightest chance he would be off, running as fast as he could. He got the occasional smack on the bottom and he's also a well adjusted, caring young man now. He got one hard smack at the age of four. We had just moved across the other side of the world to a completely different culture. He got away from me in a shop. I was terrified. When I found him, half an hour later I admit, he got a hard slap on the bottom. I cried as much as he did but I tell you what, for the first time in his life, he understood the anguish he had caused me. He never ran away again. My other son was a model child and never got a slap once, stern words were enough.
I'm not saying I condone smacking, but let's be honest here. If you have a child that simply will not respond to all of the non violent (for want of a better word!) strategies, sometimes all that's left for you to try is a quick slap. Sometimes a quick smack on the bottom gets the message across when stern words do not work. I have found that different discipline works at different stages of life. Once my children reached the age of five I found words and withdrawal of favourite toys for a while worked better. And so on.
I believe that some children respond very well to explanations and stern voices. I also believe that others respond only to a (sparingly give) smack. At times it IS necessary, depending on the child in question.
I am a very caring person and I love my kids to pieces and respect them totally. I would never ever smack someone else's child no matter what they did.
I was smacked, I did smack (occasionally), I don't regret it. I am not violent and neither are any of my friends or my children.

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Hmm..if I could manage a group of 30 children without smacking them around as a teacher, I have trouble understanding why managing one or two is difficult without physical punishment.

When parents hit their kids, they're essentially playing the role of the "bully" in their household.

I won't get into all the research behind using alternatives to corporal punishment. I'll just refer you to neverhitachild.org or nospank.net. The evidence is overwhelming.

By the way, if you're caring for someone else's child, would you smack them for doing something wrong? Probably not. Why do so many Americans treat their own children worse than they would their neighbor's? It's true. Every time you hit your child, you're having a negative impact on your relationship with him/her and a bit of trust is lost...You're also passing on the behavior of hitting when you're mad which often continues into adulthood--especially with boys who are hit more than girls--in many cases.

Like I said...if you have an open mind, do some reading on the issue. It's important for people's attitudes to change about this topic in order to have a long-lasting effect on the violence in our society today.

Hitting people is wrong, and children are people too.

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You may not have seen the ramifications, but they were there. How would you feel if you were hit when you made a mistake? Remember that if the behavior disappears, it doesn't mean it "worked" the way you think it did.

Children learn what they live. Smacking them, hitting them, spanking them--whatever you want to call it--does not fit in with respectful parenting. It can't because you're modeling hitting. It's that simple.

I'm glad your kids turned out fine. I was raised in a very chaotic home and I seem "fine" too. I guess it depends on your definition...

Jan

Originally Posted By: dollydimple
At times it IS necessary, depending on the child in question.
I am a very caring person and I love my kids to pieces and respect them totally. I would never ever smack someone else's child no matter what they did.
I was smacked, I did smack (occasionally), I don't regret it. I am not violent and neither are any of my friends or my children.

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Jellyfish
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Jan~
Thank you for your views. I always appreciate your passion on a topic. I love living in a country where ideas and opinions can be shared freely. I still believe that unless you are in someone else's shoes it is very difficult to appreciate their circumstances and choices. Thank God we still have the right to raise our children in the best way we know how.
Another issue that is raised with this topic is the enforceability of this law. It seems much time and money would be spent without the ability to enforce the law. As most discipline takes place at home.
Cyn

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I am not a spanker, I think it's wrong and abuse at it's core.I think it's a way for parents to feel better and beat up on the little one, parent don't allow their children to hit them so why hit the child, yada yada..and in that respect this potential law is great. OTOH, as a homeschooling mother ANY law that tells a parent how they can and cannot raise or discipline a child scares me. What is next, ya know? CA already has [censored] homeschooling laws I don't want to see them go into [censored] parenting laws too.

Meg


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