At what point does verbal abuse become verbal abuse? Is there any help for your partner when they have issues with aggression? My husband is not constantly verbally abusive to me. In fact, he's very loving and tries his best to overcome his rage issues.

They have decreased since we have been married (Sept. 28th, 2006) but every once in a while, they will come after a hard stressful day at work. And they come out of nowhere. It can be from him spilling something, someone accidentally hitting him with a cart at the grocery store, road errors caused by others, etc. He even got in a screaming match with a guy in the grocery store parking lot! I was so humiliated!!!

Sometimes when we go out, I pray that things will go smoothly so he does not lose his temper. I love my husband but I do not want to walk on eggshells in public just to avoid his anger being shown. He does attempt to control it but sometimes it just doesn't work.

We have no health insurance (he is contract work and I am presently unemployed--but vigoriously searching), so medication is not the answer at this time.

We are also trying to have children...but I don't know if he can get past the anger issues enough to have patience with our kids. But he is wonderful around children...just not me or strangers.

I am 29 and he is 36...neither of us are getting any younger. What are some ways to help control this rage? I see that he is trying but he struggles and it hurts me to see him that way. HELP!!!

~Mandi

Is he open about talking about his problem? Perhaps some counceling will do the trick. Or anger management

whoo scary,because at some point your children will not be strangers and women usually minimize,so its probaly worse then youve told us Your local mental health is billed by a sliding scale,and there are places to help w medication.If he doesnt go you go.it will cheap,and do you good to talk to someone.Its like walking on broken glass,isnt it?

I can relate to what your going thru my childrens father both physically and verbaly abused me for over 30yrs i still carry those scars today verbal abuse hurts the same as physical only the scars are inside and not visable with verbal abuse my children told me many times i dont know why im with you i know alot of better looking women then you well over the years i lost any self esteem i may of had, the only time it all stoped is when i put him out, hes been out of my life for over 13yrs but i still don't like my self, he took all that away from me

I can relate to what your going thru my childrens father both physically and verbaly abused me for over 30yrs i still carry those scars today verbal abuse hurts the same as physical only the scars are inside and not visable with verbal abuse my children father told me many times i dont know why im with you i know alot of better looking women then you well over the years i lost any self esteem i may of had, the only time it all stoped is when i put him out, hes been out of my life for over 13yrs but i still don't like my self, he took all that away from me

He knows his problem and is open to seeking an answer. Yes, it is a lot worse than it sounds but no physical abuse. He's not the type to do so. He's got so much rage and has been this way since his childhood. His mother suggested exercise or some type of workout, which he is doing every night.

I really think this new strand of rage is spurring from him thinking I am going to leave him. He's constantly watching who I am talking to, what I am doing, and always having nightmares that I'm leaving him. He has all these fears from past failed relationships (2 actually) where women have left him for other men. In fact, his wife of 7 years left him for another man. The girlfriend before her left him on their 7 year anniversary for another man. So, in turn, he thinks I will do the same. It's crazy but I have given him no reason to ever think I'd cheat. I am a loyal loving wife that always wants to help him.

I know most of the responses will be "leave him" but I know he is trying and I will not leave him until he quits trying. This has been a rough road from the beginning but I knew what I was taking on...and I do not give up easily. My self-esteem is not affected. This is not something that is a daily routine. However, it occurs enough to search for a resolution. I am looking for advice that will keep our marriage strong and help us in the future to stay together.

When I said "I do"...I really meant it. It took me 29 years to find my love and I do love him with all my heart. But I love myself as well. There has just got to be a way to co-exist. What do you all think?

ok,so try mental health and see what it cost,your local spouseabuse centers,what can they offer ? our local used to be good for groups for men ,too.you can call and be annoymous if you want.If you like church,some offer counseling for couples.I wouldnt tell you just to leave him,I dont know enuff and nobody else should tell you that either.Its your life.i dont understand how your self esteem is not affected,but I dont have all the degrees in the world,either.

ok,so try mental health and see what it cost,your local spouseabuse centers,what can they offer ? our local used to be good for groups for men ,too.you can call and be annoymous if you want.If you like church,some offer counseling for couples.I wouldnt tell you just to leave him,I dont know enuff and nobody else should tell you that either.Its your life.i dont understand how your self esteem is not affected,but I dont have all the degrees in the world,either.

i know it is hard to let go of someone you love. i recently had to leave a man for the similar reasons, although his verbal abuse escalated to physical and he almost killed me. he was suffering from bipolar disorder, and was not taking his meds, and refused to go to a counselor. if your husband will seek help, go for it, but if you fear for your life, and your childrens...go with your intuition. it is never wrong.

Be strong

and p.s., we all want to think they will change, but people don't change.

MandiCake> I was a victim of emotional abuse. So were my brothers. And so was my mom. My dad had horrible anger management issues. But of course, he was never the one with the problem. It was always everyone else. So in that respect, your husband is different. He is at least aware that he has a problem and he's acknowledging it, so that's definitely a good thing and a step in the right direction.

You say that your self-esteem is not affected. Are you absolutely sure? If he makes you feel humiliated at all (and you said that he does), then that's not at all good for your self-esteem. His words and actions can have repercussions that you haven't even realized yet, and may not realize for years. I'm 31 years old, and I'm still messed up by how my father treated me. My mom divorced him 14 years ago, and she is still traumatized. My brothers are also still very much affected as well. Emotional scars take a very long time to heal.

I'm concerned that you say you attribute his latest fit of rage to his fear that you'll leave him. My father had that same fear of my mother, and he humiliated and demeaned her to make her feel like she wasn't good enough for any other man but him. He did some really sick and disturbing things to her...some of which she will never tell anyone for as long as she lives. Your husband may not treat you this way now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. That kind of fear is unhealthy and from it can come a lot of ugliness.

It's commendable that you want to stick by your husband, particularly since he is willing to get help. Just be aware that if he can't change...if all his attempts at getting help fail...you need to look after yourself and do what you need to do to protect yourself. Since you don't have health insurance and you don't think you can afford counseling, don't be afraid to seek the help of clergy if you are comfortable doing that.

I would also strongly urge you to hold off on kids until this situation gets rectified. My dad was also wonderful with kids, as long as they weren't his own. In fact, he was pretty much wonderful with anyone who was not a member of his own family. Nobody believed it when we told them how he treated us. So just because your husband is good with kids, that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be good with YOUR kids. They'll be around him a lot more than other people's kids will. I realize, as you say, that you are not getting any younger, but you're 29. You still have many childbearing years left. And if he treats you badly now, and you are the most important person in the world to him, then your future children are not necessarily immune. I've been there. I know of what I speak.

Good luck.

There is only one person's behavior you can control or change and that is yours and the same goes for him. Nobody can tell you to leave him. That's up to you, but if you choose to stay, make certain you have an escape plan set up and stick to it. I hope he truly wants to change for your sake. I'm skeptical. I've heard it too many times as a way to keep control over me. My ex used to use that when he'd gone too far and was afraid I'd really leave. In order for him to change his behavior, he will have to change his beliefs. An abuser truly believes they have the right to abuse. They also truly believe they are superior to their victim. It takes alot of hard work and soul searching, not just wanting to change, although that is the starting point. You say he doesn't physically abuse you. I say not yet. I have realized as time has gone on and I'm out of the abuse the bruises, broken bones, etc., have healed, but the deep scars, insecurities, and lowered selfworth caused by his verbal abuse are still very much with me. In this way, I think verbal abuse is worse than the physical. While physical abuse can kill you swiftly, verbal abuse is a slow death. Maybe you should consider some counseling for you to help you understand why you take it. I understand your vow til death do you part, but it was never meant to mean until the abuse kills you-emotionally or physically! You should be able to get counseling free of charge and discretely through a woman's shelter or a support group. It's worth looking into because YOU are worth it. Good luck!

Greetings

Verbal abuse is a largely a tool of the heiarchy of rejection.

Te Bible says that we are not to stand int he path of an angry man; but an IF the unbelieving departLET HIM DEPART;the Beliver is no longer in bondage and is free to marry.

For a jewish person the process is more of a communty decision though a Beit Din =J Judaic Judgement Seat

Life Cycle decisions are not exclusivly self proclaimed. Ideals ARE ideal; the gift of life being the gift no one should throw away aor demean ANYONE;marriage and family does take a high position in Jewish life choice and is openly rewarded for success and firmly disciplined for failure to try.

It is written in Malachi that a man is NOT to deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.Thehusband is not to *clothe HIMSELF* with violence.

The word CLOTHE in the original context is actually WOVEN or clothed in. The Two ahve become ONE in marriage;when youtryto separate the cloth that is woven there is a tear or a redning which denotes violence. Tearing of the covering UNCLOTHES the clothed...revealing their naked truth to outsiders and open to the indiscretions of the waiting public comment.

Baruch HaShem!

correction:RENDING/Tearing which denoes violence.

Your husband is great for one thing.....

You will so appreciate your next husband!!!

Please divorce. DO NOT have kids! I know you won't listen to me - because you don't want to admit you made a mistake getting married, you want children, you are worried your next beau will find all the same problems with you that your current husband thinks you have, you think that you just haven't found the right words yet to convince him to be nicer, you hate the idea of being by yourself and starting over, and it somehow seems easier to just remain hopeful that things will get better. I can say with 99.9% certainty that you will regret marrying him.

Let me tell you that my exhusband was very verbally abusive to me - we didn't have a physically abusive relationship. He never raised his voice at me, nor called me the "b" word or worse. Therefore, I didn't recognize that he was abusive, and I grew to believe that everything he said about me was true, because it stemmed from some seed of truth. For example: I was 20 lbs. overweight, so he was right that I was repulsive, undisciplined, and that I embarrassed him - and he became the food police. Another example: My boss was easygoing, so even though I worked under that boss for 7 years as an engineer, my exhusband convinced me that I really was too stupid to hold a job and that it was only out of the goodness of my bosses' heart that I was still employed. After 20 years with my ex, I was a mental wreck. When my kids were 2 and 5, and I was 37,I left him, even though I had been a stay at home mom for 2 years and was afraid that I couldn't support me and the kids. At 38, I married the nicest man in the world who I am so in love with everyday. He cherishes me. We have never had an argument. We have no "issues." We just make out, make love, and talk to each other sweetly everyday. Life is so wonderful and everyday is peaceful and blissful, except that I am tied to my ex until my kids are 18 years old, and that part of my life is hell every week. Also, it costs at least $40K from the time you file for divorce until the end of trial.

An abusive husband is a bad father, and you will not be a good mother if you have children with an abuser, no matter how hard you try. In fact, a good, smart mother with her head on straight does not choose to have children with an abuser. I really don't mean to insult you, I am only telling you that in 10 years, afteryou have matured and learned the hard way, you will agree with me. Also, babies and kids add stress to a marriage - they will not improve your marriage, even though there are some tender moments.

I have a lot of court experience and have read more books about abuse than I can count, partly for healing purposes, partly for court purposes, and partly because I am writing self-help books about abuse. Let me tell you that most abusers go for custody of the children - and they often get at least 50%, even sole custody!! He will have no problem telling, and if he is the charming type, manipulating the court system into thinking you are "overemotional" and "moody," and maybe even "crazy." A controlling guy doesn't usually just hand the kids over to his exwife! It will cost you a lot of money to prove that you are the better parent, and even then it is a [censored] shoot (they may give him the kids half of the time but just require him to go to therapy). If you want to be sure that you will raise your kids, you will have to stay with him until the kids are 18. This is not my opinion - an abused woman is statistically at a disadvantage for getting primary custody. There are many reasons for that if you want to discuss it with me.

The divorce rate is over 50%, and that is mostly nonabusers. What chance do you have starting out a marriage with an abuser?? It isn't as if you married a great guy and 10 years later are going through a rough patch together. If you read any book about abuse, abuse gets worse with time, you will get more messed up with time, and your kids will learn how to be husbands and wives from you and your husband. You will help perpetuate the cycle - your daughter in law will come crying to you, and your grand kids will be messed up.

I am almost 41, and have a baby with my new husband. You are only 29 - it is better to tackle your situation now and start over than to foolishly hope for happiness and have to live with the emotional and financially devastating consequences later and forever.

I want you to know that you will be a great wife to your next husband, even though you will have lots of repair work to do on yourself after years of verbal abuse. It is because you are so loving, flexible, trusting, have a capacity to give, and believe in giving this lousy husband a chance that will make you a sweet and giving wife to your next husband, who will in turn make you feel loved everyday.

I don't think any woman should marry or have kids with a guy if she can't tell herself, with a smile on her face, everyday, that she loves the way he treats her. Stop telling yourself that you "love" him, because if it is true, then you have serious problems - no self-respecting woman "loves" someone who causes her pain and emotionally batters her. That is not healthy. What you love is the feeling of not coming home to an empty house, not having to financially support yourself, and the excitement of starting a family, and the idea of being married, and getting to pretend that you have what other married couples have. You may think you love him, but someday you won't, just like 50% of the population goes through.

Remember that the 50% who don't get divorced typically have something that the other 50% don't have - obviously they have a better than average marriage. You don't even have an average marriage. Your marriage doesn't have a chance. So give yourself and your future children the chance for a blissful life, and give your love to a man who deserves it. Abusers are not husband material, and no amount of therapy makes them into hsuband material. Your husband doesn't deserve you.

Oh Mandicake,

I just read this other posting of yours. Oh please, I am begging you, and I never beg anyone! You need to get out. Please listen to those of us who have been there. You sound so young, confused, immature. You are young - 29 is still young. You don't know what a sick situation you are in. There is a reason why these two other women left him - and it is not because there is something wrong with them. Meet with them, and learn about everything they went through. Take them to lunch or dinner, without your husband of course. Do not defend him, but let these women talk openly to you about it - tell them you respect them and that since they were an important part of his life, you need their help to understand your husband. In 10 or 20 years, you will look back at your post and realize just how lost and confused you were. You will be largely a different person. Learn from others - don't learn the hard way like I did.

You are not to be admired for staying. Saying "I do" when you got married was supposed to be done under the correct, right cirumstances. You did not build a proper foundation under which "I do" is to be applied. You are not a bad person for leaving. "I do" has biblical foundation and doesn't apply to men being abusive - God can't make two people "as one" when one of them is abusive. Your husband lied when he said "I do." He is breaking his vows - his promises to God about how he would treat the woman whom God made in his likeness and image (I am not that religious, but I know that much). Promises made under false pretenses are not to be kept. You may actually have grounds for annulment since you are still a newlywed. You do not have a "strong marriage." You have no marriage. My exhusband wasn't as sick as your husband, and I can't tell you the struggles with healing that I have had to work on overcoming, and I don't expect to ever be fully recovered, because the abuse helps form your personality. If you leave now, damage to you will be minimal - all that you may need to do is read a dozen or so books, journal your thoughts, and maybe some therapy, in order to be functional and healthy enough to want only the nicest guy in the world. You want a bad man right now. That is unhealthy.

Stop telling yourself that it "isn't that bad" or "not bad all of the time." I was with my abuser for 20 years! Of course it wasn't bad all of the time -I would have ended up dead, killed him, or ended up in a mental institution if it was bad "all of the time." It doesn't have to be bad all of the time to cause great damage that occurs so slowly that you don't even recognize it. But I recognize in your post - you sound like a typical abused woman. And don't even try telling yourself that you made it sound worse than it really is - I used to do that too.

Every day that you stay in this nonmarriage is one less day of your life that you will be reveling in the loving arms of your next husband.

Wife of the Best Husband, I do agree with most of what you said above with the exception of a few things. The "you can't be a good mother if you have kids with someone who is abusive". I have always been a good mother. My kids have always been taken care of and the biggest thing I have ever done to take good care of them was leave my abuser before it got too bad or one of us ended up dead.

Also, just because someone is overweight doesn't make them "repulsive, undisciplined, and an embarrassment". There are many reasons for someone being overweight from health problems (thyroid is a prime example), mental problems (such as depression, eating disorders, etc.) and other underlying problems. Overweight people are not all lazy and I get tired of hearing that (please don't think I am upset. I am not by any means. Just expressing my feelings).

Everything else in your post I agree with. Divorce can be very expensive as you say. Many women stay with their abuser for the simple fact that they can't afford a divorce. There are many options and many types of lawyers out there that will help you. Never be afraid to at least call and ask several lawyers their fees. I am working with one now who is an ex child support prosecutor....should make for an interesting divorce since my ex is over 8k behind in support!

My apologies, I didn't write clearly:

(1) I don't think I was repulsive - those things were what my husband said about me.

(2) When you live with an abuser, it is not possible to be a great mother, for many reasons, but to sum it up - because a great mother provides a loving, peaceful, and relaxed household, and is all of those things herself. No matter how old your kids are when you leave your abuser, a child is at an emotional disadvantage for having been exposed to a hostile household at all, and for having to deal, for the rest of his life, with a dad who has the mindset of an abuser. Not exactly the "Little House on the Prairie" family experience that every child should be born into.

My apologies for misunderstanding what you have read. That is one draw back of communication methods like these. My 6 1/2 year old still has memories of what his father did to me. They aren't the real bad things but still have an impression on his little mind. I let him speak freely of what he saw and try to the best of my ability to reassure him that his father will never hurt us again. My fiance' lets Wes know that he is available to be a father figure when he needs it but hasn't forced himself upon him which I am grateful for. Kids are so impresionable.

Actually, I do not think it's that simple, small. People do change. People do make themselves better. My husband is a better person to this day and getting better all the time. We just found out we were pregnant two days ago after many months of trying after a miscarriage. In the months since I have posted this, his attitude has changed dramatically. I can't wait to see him as a father. He's really amazed me and put my faith back into the thought that people CAN change.

Mandi, yes abusers can change but it is rare. You are very blessed to have him changing for the better! Thanks for the update on the situation. Congrats on the pregnancy!! Let us know how things go! It is always great to hear a success!

The thing is, if you read "The verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, you find that those wonderful high points where he is nice and everything are actually part of the cycle of verbal abuse because they make you think he his trying, is better, etc, and when he "loses control" again it is so much worse than before because of the break. It is all control.

Most women don't leave a 7 year relationship on a whim, you are probably starting to see many of the same things that drove his ex away. It's how the cycles work. My mom left my dad after being married 6 years. His second wife called my mom 4 years later and said all the time she was married to him she thought my mom was the b from hell, but now realizes it was all a lie. My ex played the same game, he painted his ex-gf as a habitual cheater, abuser, etc, but as soon as he leaves me for her, guess who is the habitual cheater, abuser, etc? Me.

After I left my ex the last time, when we got back together I was put in the position of constantly trying to prove that I wouldn't leave again. Never mind why I left, obviolusly I was wrong, right? As I continued to promise, he continued to treat me bad, and I took it, and worse because I promised I wouldn't leave. But in the end, the verbal met the physical abuse and the betayal became so bad that I broke my promise. And according to him, it was all my fault anyway.

Good luck. Remember, anger management can't cure an abuser because their problem is their THINKING and CONTROL not anger. They need an abusers program if they want to have a chance to change.

Dez

Dez, You've got a good grip on what's happening and have potential to be a huge success story. Stay strong. If your heart tries to take over, it's easy to forget everything you know and emotions don't make great decisions. Abusers are such great actors and I think our hearts really want it to be true. Abuse is a deal breaker. The only promises you need to worry about are the ones you've made to yourself and your kids. When you're ready, you should think about becoming an abuse advocate. You'd be good at it!

I agree that being overly excited about him overcoming his anger and abuse overnight is too short-sighted. But this has been months of progress, therapy, and just plain happiness. Happiness I have never felt before. If it were a week, I'd understand the cries for me to leave him but his amazing changes has made me realize how much I do love this man and how he will change for me in order to make me happy. Perhaps he was not over the abuse from his former wife (which his family told me he was really abused by her) and thought that another woman would do the same to him. I honestly did not believe in miracles until this situation began to take a turn for the better. In all that anger, I found a soulmate...who would have thought that one? He comes home smiling and when I am sad, he makes sure to put a smile on my face. Now, that was love is supposed to be like. I thank God every day for me not giving up on this relationship.

It is possible for him to change if he really wants to and is dedicated to it. Just watch for the signs, if he gets irritated do you back down a bit? If he gets too angry about something, does he blame something/one other than himself for it? If he does change, great for you and more power to him.

Only...a few months is nothing to an abuser. My ex could go 4, 6 months after swearing he would never hurt me again to his blow-up. So much the worse for the long furlough. Some people thing that if he hasn't sparked in a couple weeks the bad times are over, but abusers know about damage control too, and they use it to their advantage. They can realize they pushed us too far that last time and are on the "honeymoon" much longer than before. But when it starts again, the cyclone starts all over again.

Good luck, and here's hoping you're one of the lucky few.

Dez

Mandicake - I am going to tell you a story, and it's up to you what you get from it.

I have an aunt who was married to my step-dad's brother. The whole family hated her. She was abusive, mean, controlling. She was mean to his daughter and we heard terrible stories about what she did. My parents took this cousin in when she was 13 and her parents lived in Germany (my uncle is air force). At 16 my cousin is diagnosed with Hodgekins Disease and they move from Germany to live by us and take care of my cousin.

We all knew we would hate my aunt, and we weren't disapointed. My uncle was charming and my aunt frazzled. But you know what happened? As we got to know her and her two boys, we started seeing a different picture. We saw a woman who wasn't allowed to use the checkbook, who wasn't allowed to open the family mail, who was constantly berated for being overweight (she really wasn't). And then one day the older of the two boys came to my little sister and, very embarrased, showed her a bruise on his rib and asked how long should it be there? It had been there 2 weeks he said, from when his dad kicked him.

After awhile it was clear it was my uncle, not his wife, who was the abuser. But only we saw it. The whole rest of my step-dads family didn't see it. My mom and I helped my aunt leave him, helped her write her court rebuttals. It was a long and drawn out 2.5 year battle for custody that she eventually won, but literally by the skin of her teeth, and without our help she would have been lost.

This man berated, controlled and belittled her until she almost believed him. He kicked his son in the ribs, grabbed him by the neck and threw him against walls. It was all documented. But his family (except my step-dad) still think she was the abuser. If you talk to any one of them they will tell you how terrible she is. But if you talk to me, my dad, or my mom, or even my sister, you would hear a different story.

The moral: Remember that your husbands family don't know him as the man you do. Or his ex's did. To them he is a brother, a son. And you can bet that they will see him in a better light, because its hard to look at your brother and know what he really is.

Dez

*Edited by Jeanette*

If you are going to attack someone, do it in private messages.

Hi,
Since he keeps going off on people in public someone may want to fight with him. Or someone is going to call the police on him. He could get arrested for this uncontrolled, crazy behavior. I would not try to have children with him. I mean if you choose to put up with this, that is 1 thing. But it is not fair to bring kids into this. He may be wonderful around kids because they belong to others. But that could change if you 2 have them.

This is his problem to fix, not yours. You can give all the support that you want. But he is the only 1 who can change this terrible anger with professional help. He sounds very controlling. Most of us had many past hurts & worse, but that gives no one the right or excuse to go off on people like that. To me you seem to make alot of excuses for his behavior. The law may force him to sit in jail to think about it. He may also go off on another person who has anger issues. They may just beat him up real bad. You never know who you are dealing with in public.

I live in Chicago too like Smallbutstrong (above post)& you never know who you may encounter. He may meet his match if he does not do something about his problem. Good luck & look out for yourself. Judy K. Chicago.