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Parakeet
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I have to admit that in my reading of the Bible, I've stumbled and in the end skipped over the writtings of Paul. <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />

I know he suffered greatly for Chrisitianity and it was his letters that kept many of the first churches glued together.

I still have problems with him though, mostly when he writes about women.

Does anyone else have issues with what Paul has written? Anyone have any insight into what he says?

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What I like about Paul is that he was considered one of the greatest Pharisees in his time, then Jesus got ahold of him and his old friends shunned him. They basically called him crazy and tried to put him down wherever he went and taught, but he was undaunted. he was SURE he knew the truth and didn't back down. So much so, that he actually argued with and called Peter out when he thought Peter was faultering in his grace teaching.

Paul was a little guy, not very atractive. Probably down right ugly. He had the attitude that he was smarter than others, and he struggled witht that alot. He got that attitude from his training to be a Pharisee. Everything Paul did he did with gusto. It was all or nothing for him.

Lots of people have trouble with Paul. However, try to think of him as just another man who struggled with his pride while trying to teach others about the love he felt from Jesus. Even though he never knew him when he was alive. I think Paul was alot like most men these days...

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 07/22/06 11:31 PM.
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I know that he was a Christian and a very staunch believer in Christ. I believe what happened to him on the road to Damascas happened because it turned him from persecutor to persecuted. He suffered greatly for his message no one would do that just to lead others astray. Those that lead astray usually stop when it gets too tough.

I still have so many issues with him though and can't read his writings. I enjoy the Gospels, Acts, 1&2nd John, Peter etc. Paul just makes me mad, and worse yet mad at God.

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I've been over at the muslim website respectively learning more so I can understand where K7 is coming from. So far what I have read about the status of women according to the Quran are the same problems I have with Paul.

To an independant modern women Paul is very offensive in his rules that apply to women. In this I have not been able to come to an understanding, culteral or otherwise. He had the altimate chance to provide equality for women, who were his most dedicated followers, and he limited them.

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I NEED HELP!!!

I think I'm loosing the battle. I'm stumped on the question does God understand women?

Jesus came as a man and suffered greatly, so I know that God understands man and suffering. How can I know if he understands women?

Does anyone know any books or website links that I could read to help me answer this question?

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I'm new to this forum, so I'm not too sure where others stand on issues such as these. So I'm going to stick my neck out here and hope it doesn't get hacked off!
I've often heard that it is said that "We are more American than we are Christian." Ok, so that doesn't work for someone from Canada, but you get the picture. We often carry around ideas that we get from our culture, and when they clash with God's view, we get upset. We have to remember that God created us, so he 1.) understands us (women) and 2.) He's right.

So what does that have to do with Paul? Paul was chosen by God to bring the news of salvation to the Gentiles. I trust God knew what he was doing. We (women) don't always like what Paul has to say. But what if he's right about women?

I'm going to make a lot of radical feminists mad right now, but while we are equal in value to men, we are not the SAME as men. And we certainly weren't created to do the same things men were created to do. Our roles are DIFFERENT. From the very begining God created us different. But it is also from the begining that we begin to have the problem. When God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, he oppointed Adam as the head, he also said that women will always have a problem with that and try to rule over the man. It's in our very nature to rebel against the idea that men are over us. But the fact remains that that is how God created it to be. That doesn't mean we are to be abuse by men. They are commanded to love us, we are only commanded to honor them. Someone who loves doesn't abuse.

So the way our relationships work best is when we follow Gods plan. It doesn't make sense to our limited human brain, but God also said we would never understand his ways.

Perhaps you can give me exact examples of what offends you by Paul, maybe then I can give a better answer (or at least try!)

Last edited by ssorcehtta; 08/24/06 09:42 AM.

Rachel
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I know what your saying but it doesn't stop the anger from rising up inside me.

A male God, a male Messiah, Since men do not have a clue about women can they? Even as a creator can he really know what it means to be a women? Isn't his laws, his design and the whole Bible have issues with things that are specifically female?

I realize that Jesus held women in a higher regard then the men on earth did. I also know that many women have biblical books about what they'd done. I also get that we are loved the same as men, but can this mean that God gets us?

How is it right that a women should not have a leadership role in the church over men? If she is more pious why shouldn't she be able to teach to men? Both during the time of Moses and Jesus God had an opportunity to shed light on this question and raise the status of women to equality, but didn't. Why not?

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Shark
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I think if you read the book of Judges, God did use a woman to lead his people while a man was scared to do so.
Here are a couple of books that are really good.
Her Name Is Woman book one
Her Name Is Woman book Two by Gien Karssen
I think you will enjoy them.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
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I'll have to get them... I don't want to struggle with this much longer, I want to understand.

Mind me asking what part of Canada your from?

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I haven't really read Paul (and from what I've heard I don't want to) so I can't comment specifically, but just a thought...

Perhaps God did not send a woman to rule/guide men(as in mankind, not just the gender) in spirituality because God knew that in those times the people were more likely to listen to a man. Women had little to no standing in those times; how can one be expected to lead if they were not respected/listened to/valued (for themsleves, not as property)? Jesus, as a man, had a hard enough time getting people to listen to him, how would a woman have faired?


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
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Zebra
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http://forums.bellaonline.com/showflat.p...amp;Search=true

I have read the book. Jeez, men throughout the ages, stink!!

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Hi Carennedy,
As you know, I am no longer a Christian, but I will try to help you out on this from a Christian perspective.

Remember that this was 2000 years ago and women in most societies and cultures were considered to be less than men. It was even believed by some that women did not have souls.

Jesus, in his entire life, did not put women down but treated them as equals I believe. If this were not so, I'm sure there wouldn't have been so many who followed him and even stayed faithful to him to the very last, when all the men, except John, deserted him.

Paul was an entirely different kettle of fish. He never knew Jesus personally, so never came under his influence. He retained the old ways and the old ideas on many issues - especially women.

His words on love (In corinthians)are so different from his other writings that it has been suggested that these were actually more likely to have been the words of Jesus, repeated by others and taken up by Paul.

You once told me not to judge God by the people who represent him (priests and other christians)and I think the same thing applies here. Don't allow your faith in the Divine to be shaken by those who were his human teachers and servants. If there is a loving divinity who cares about us all equally, then these ancient humans were not reflecting this divine love. They were expressing their own beliefs and prejudices and passing them off as God's teachings and ideas.

Look only to the one who truly reflected the love of God - Jesus. There you have all.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


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Thanks Patience.

I haven't stopped believing in God, just having issues with him regarding women. I do agree with you though, I should not allow Paul's attitude regarding women to reflect that of Gods.

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Zebra
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Carennedy...

Understand....

GOD never had or even HAS, if you will, issues with women. This is an entirely male-human aspect of so-called Christians and followers of a faith.

GOD never gave an unequal assessment - it all came out of the mouths of those who absolutely believed they were doing his will...It has existed as a prejudice against women well since before Christianity emerged, and has pesisted in many ways, to this day. Get the book, read it, and weep.

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I'm so with yopu there...... I was just thinking the other day how violently barbaric patriarical socities are compared to those where women have a voice.

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Whether Paul intended it or not his writings, which were his personal opinion, have been used to repress women and persecute gays, so I don't have much love for the chap!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
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From what I learned in my J-C Heritage class, Paul was one of the major players in the great 3-4th century debate on whether you had to become Jewish before becoming Christian. He was on the No side. Historically, that would mean that he never met Jesus. Instead he was originally one of Rome's huntsmen in trying to wipe out Christianity. Then came the big light on the road to Damascus (it's been 30 years since the course, so please correct Bible story details if they come up) and he switched sides only to find himself embroiled in another controversy. Given his background, his choice of sides makes sense. I think that in his letters, he was trying to set down the distinctions between the rules of behavior to be followed by his side and traditional Jewish laws of behavior. There are a lot of things he simply states without giving any reason for them, particularly any reasons that can be defended on basics like The Golden Rule. As you can guess, I'm no fan of his. I think he made the Christian faith more rigid and more insistent that it was the only way, which led to further stiff-necked controversies that led to great schisms, like how to hold your hand in doing the sign of the cross.

DJC


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Zebra
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The most politically correct, respectful and vociferous advocate for the rights of women, in the New Testament, was actually Jesus Christ himself.
By saving the woman from being stoned, by having Women in his entourage, and by revealing himself to a woman first and foremost, after his resurrection, shows an altogether too uncommon deference to the female, in any religious tome. He was often criticised for his attitude toards them but he never budged, and stood his ground.
That his followers, disciples and representatives have consciously since, worked towards the repression of women in Religion - and in general - is a damning shame, and a clear insult to, and defiance of, His teachings.

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I wonder if Jesus would have got on with Paul if they had met up? I think it is doubtful!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
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Zebra
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I think a direct and personal influence would definitely have altered Paul's general outlook somewhat....But Jesus would probably have just rolled his eyes and thought,
"Cripes, here we go again! Another one!!"

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Quote:
I think a direct and personal influence would definitely have altered Paul's general outlook somewhat....But Jesus would probably have just rolled his eyes and thought,
"Cripes, here we go again! Another one!!"



<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
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Some people who do not like what Paul said about women simply do not understand what He said in the light of the culture. For example; when Paul said that women should be silent in church, he was not being rude. In his day women and men would sit on opposite sides of the synagogues. Men sat with men and women with women. If women wanted to ask their husband's a question during the service they would call out across the room and this sometimes interrupted the service! That was rude. So, Paul was advising against it.

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