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I want to challenge you to take the time to research the historical facts and discuss them with your teenagers. Use this blockbuster to teach your children how to research important issues to come to a decision. How to make informed decisions is a life skill all parents should teach their children.

Check out my Article on the subject

As of today the results of the poll suggest that 34% believe Dan Brown's conspiracy to be true, this is up from earlier this week when 32% believe Dan Brown's conspiracy to be FACT, last week - 29% and 21% the week previous.

Please take a moment to write your response, opinion or reaction to this article or issue.

I've Read the Book
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Votes accepted starting: 04/23/06 11:06 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
I plan on seeing the movie
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 04/23/06 11:06 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
In my opinion theories in the book are
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Votes accepted starting: 04/23/06 11:06 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
Last edited by Carennedy; 05/30/06 03:35 PM.
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The book is not the real issue here. Parents can use it as a way to find out where their teenagers thoughts are. What they believe and why. This discussion can lead to many other more important ones.

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Things to ponder about the davinci code:

The book makes a big deal about Jesus marrying Mary Magdaline and that he wasn't divine until Emperor Constantine declared him to be in 325 AD. Considering this how does Brown's claim that Mary Magdaline become the divine mother hold up? If Jesus was not divine, how in the world is his child divine? Or his so called wife? Why should his wife be worshiped as a goddess?

Anyone?????

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Did anyone see the 60 minutes show on the Priority of Sion? They claim it was started as a hoax in 1956. In another documentary from the history channel they mention that there is a land deed with the Piority of Sion on it.

Does anyone know anything about this?

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The Da Vinci Code is entirly fiction.

I believe that Mary was married to one of the apostles. Not Jesus. Jesus was already gone. I think she was the wife of the leader of the church in Jerusalem at that time so it's easily mistaken that she was married to the actual leader.

If Jesus was not the Son of God, why did He have to die? Why did the Jewish leaders of the day insist on His crucifixtion? Why did they hunt Him down on several occasions and try to kill Him?

I think this whole thing is a set up for the end times. This is how the anti-christ is going to fool multitudes of people. This is exactly who he will claim to be. This is exactly how he will claim divinity.

The Da Vinci Code is a lie. Pure unadulterated fiction. Anyone who gives it any credence is fooled.

My opinion...

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 05/14/06 10:29 PM.

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let's be precise here...the DaVinci Code is a work of fiction. Dan Brown has always admitted this, and never denied that it was written as a thriller.
But much of what he has written is based on fact.... and due to the secretive nature of some societies and organisations, the facts remain shrouded and clouded in mystery.

But there you go.... Just enjoy the book. the only time you might come under the scrutiny of one of these societies, is by plotting openly to overthrow the Church. Which probably wouldn't go down too well in other spheres either.


Incidentally, one of our British Government Ministers, Ruth Kelly, is a member of Opus Dei, thinks all homosexuals are anti-Christ,and is vociferously and strongly anti-abortion (not pro-choice)....Well, she's entitled to her opinion....

However...

She has been recently appointed as Minister for Community and Local Government. She is responsible for overseeing the law of equal opportunity and discrimination, and the rights of the Minority.

Wrong person, wrong job, I think.....!!

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The Da Vinci Code is obviously fiction and from what I have read in the Da Vinci Code Breaker (written by theologians, church historians and expert in early modern European history) it is not even based on much fact. The problem is that even Christians, who do not know the Bible well, believe some of the assertions in the novel.

I've never read or heard anyone say that Mary Magdalene was married to an apostle or church leader. It could be true, but when I did a Bible study of her I didn't run across anything that led me to think that.

I am positive that she was not married to Jesus.

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On Good Morning America Dan Brown said he believed that although the story was fiction it is based on fact. When asked if he were to change it into a non fiction book what would he change, he replied "nothing." Whether for publicity or actual belief he is publically asserting that the conspiracy is true.

Which part do you believe to be true?

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Most of it is hypothetical and imaginary...many of the facts he ascribes to various places (number of windows, measurements) are completely innacurate and invented.
the origins of the societies, their rules and functions are researched and accurate...What their opinions and involvement on Mary Magdalen and the Holy grail are, is purely inventive speculation on his part....
It's an extremely clever book, marketed in an extraordinarily cunning way...It's got everybody talking, when there are so many more important issues to address...we're talking, aren't we....? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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This Ruth Kelly lady is deffinatley the wrong person for the job she has been appointed.

Ones own opinions and religion should NEVER have any place in politics and law making.Keep us up to date on the drivel that is sure to come out of her mouth

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Movie is coming out in Canada this week. Many people are very excited to go and see it. Will it be a blockbuster or just a buster? The hype has been huge and the expectation for many high.

Alexandra, you bring up some interesting points like the number of pains of glass in the pyramid.

Does anyone else know of any other details that are absolutely false in this novel?

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Question to ponder.

The theory states that Mary Magadeline was buried under Herod's palace.

#1 What would the proposed wife of Jesus be doing buried under a Jewish leader's home?

#2 This was way before the time of refrigeration, is it really logical to believe that they took Mary's rotting corpse all the way from France to Jerusalem to be buried.

#3 What reason would they have to take her body out of France to be buried.

Any answers?

As of today 26% of those polled believe the theory to be fact. I have yet to see one reason as to why someone would believe it.

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Anyone see the movie yet? How was it?

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Just my response to number two....
The body would not have been 'rotting' because of the practise of embalming....the process preserves the body astoundingly....Look at the Egyptian mummies....

pretty gross still, anyway....*bleagh!*

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Fiction. No, I mean fact. No, first answer...fiction.


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I think there is a bit of truth mixed in with alot of fiction in this movie. Obviousley alot of it was made up just like alot of religious texts are made up I suppose.

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That's an extremely good and pertinent point, FreeSpirit...
There was a programme on Sunday, with a Biblical scholar pulling the book to bits, saying that the account of the Emperor Constantine was 100 years out....
And the Literary critic pointed out that the Gospels were written at least 100 years after the death of Christ - WITHOUT the benefit of media communication, or WWW internet research facilities....

It is all very well for people to dismiss this book as outright fiction... We could begin though, by calling it 'Faction'...But The Bible, as an historical factual account of Jesus, doesn't hold much water under scrutiny, either....
Historical research on events such as the Massacre of the Innocents shows the date of this event to be wildly innacurate and completely at odds, regarding the Life-time-line of Herod Agrippa, for example....

It's taken the heat and attention away from those parchments regarding Judas....

But let's not get off-topic....
Scrutiny and denial of this book, by the Church, is primarily borne out of Fear....
It's held up as blasphemous Mockery, because they are afraid it will Knock the Faith....

It will soon blow over though....
It's a storm in a tea-cup...

The Belief in Jesus Christ as saviour has survived worse than this....

Last edited by Alexandra; 05/22/06 02:32 AM.
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I've changed my mind again, I think it's false now.


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The Bible holds up under scrutiny and is the most authentic historical document from that time. The books were written by those who knew Jesus and were written within 70 years of his death by eye witnesses. There were thousands of eyewitnesses living at the time who would of disproved the books at the time. The Isrealites took their religion very very seriously and did not tolerate false teachings.

There are 5000 copies and thousands of fragments in existence today that were discovered throughout the ancient world. These copies are 98.5% identical. The other 1.5% are grammatical differences, not doctrinal. The oldest copy was copied 55 years after the original was written.

To compare this to other ancient documents, there are 7 copies of Plato's works. There is only 1 copy of Tactis's Annuals of Imperial Rome. There are 9 copies of historian Josephus's book The Jewish War, these copies are dated centuries after the originals and are considered reliable.

The Gospels can be re-written by taking quotes from non biblical writtings of the time.

Check out my article on the subject for the facts regarding the Bible and its authenticity


Last edited by Carennedy; 05/22/06 03:27 PM.
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All the christians are up in arms and making a big deal out of the movie and books. what i want to know is why? the more they strife to do away with it the more popular it becomes. if they really wanted to get ride of the DaVinci Code they would ignore it!!! How many teens are there that what to see a movie about history fact or fiction?

my opintion its fiction even Ron Howard the produce said so.


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Christians are only talking about it in order to use it as a forum to discuss the truth about Jesus and the Bible.

Many people believe 100% that the theory is FACT. According to my little poll above 29% believe it to be FACT, although none of them have let us know why.

I personally know people who believe this book is true. The writer of the book on a few major news shows has said that he believes the theory to be fact and says so on the front page of his book.

The book was a blockbuster way before the Christians started talking about it. At first it was ignored and it still kept selling at the top of the charts. It's only been since the movie that Christians have started to talk about it more and more.

Christians are not attacking the book, we are only discussing the truth so that those who do not know the truth can find it. However, many want to believe this far fetched theory that doesn't make sense.

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As per Alexandra's number 2 answer - mummification:

So why did they take the body all the way back to Isreal to bury it under a Jewish Landmark? The Jewish rulers would have rejoiced in order to prove that they did right by killing Jesus and proving he wasn't the Messiah.

There's the proof just lying there under an important Jewish building and what they didn't know about it? How would they have not known about it?

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Other than:
The Priory of Sion - a European Society founded in 1099, which is a real organisation, and the Vatican prelature known as 'Opus Dei', which is a deeply devout Catholic Sect -

IT'S ALL FICTION - !!

I have the book right in front of me now - and it clearly states that it's fiction....!

"in this work of FICTION The characters, places and events are either the products of the Author's imagination, or they are used entirely fictitiously"

- It says!

IT'S FICTION - !!

A work of fantasy!

Imaginative!

Made up!!

Not real!!


I hope that's cleared that little matter up....

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I'm not sure that even what Brown says is fact is fact. I just read and heard on a news program (yes even they are discussing the book) that the Priory was a club created in 1953 by Pierre Plantard. He later testified under oath that he had fabricated the entire hoax. The society existed only in the novel and in the mind of Pierre Plantard.

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Well there you go....!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Alexandra, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I realize that you know the book to be fiction.

The conversation is important because many believe it to be true, as with my little poll - 29% of my little poll believe the conspiracy is fact not Fiction.

Yes I realize that many could be screwing around, but many still believe the consipiracy to be true.

60 minutes did a show on the Priory of Sion - you may still be able to view it on their website. They did find a paper where the Priory of Sion did own land in the early 1000's but this is not the Priory of Sion Dan Brown is talking about.

Dan Brown is basing it on the Documents Secrete found in the bibliotech national. It has been proven that this document is a fake and was deposited by Pierre Plantard in 1953.

Dan Brown based a lot of his conspiracy from information on the book Holy Blood Holy Grail.

Another book that writes a fictional story about the church killing to keep secrets of da vinci is the da Vinci Codex, written before Dan Browns book. I enjoyed the da Vinci Codex much better as it was a better written book.

My point is that these theories have been around a long time. It is the marketing of the book that has made it come to the forefront of church conversation. Tomorrow the whole issue will be over and Jesus will be the one left standing.

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Have you checked out Lisa's page on this topic.

Lisa Shea's Da Vinci Code Web Page - Got Everything you need to find the Truth

It's great.

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Anyone see the A&E Documentaries on Dan Brown's books?

They are very pro conspiracy and the experts they interview support the idea of the Mary Magdaline story. Highly educated people believe that there is more behind this theory.

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I did not mean to say chirstians are attacking the book. Where i live and my church and many other are tring to boycott the movie and books and have surmonds on how wrong and immoral it is. and the fack that is has just came out Friday here and we have heard about the DaVinci Code for the past 4 months... every teen i have seen snick off to watch it because they were curious have told me they did nt see the big deal it is fiction and not one of the greatest movies. the fact that some countrys are trying to ban it and some not all christians get defencive and some hostle. they think well if it brings true believers to scamble and find facts and thearoys and it boils down to excuses then there most be some truth. My belief is still the same before after and during the DaVinci Code and Harry Potter and any other movie book or Rock and Roll. God is God Because I know Jesus died and ROSE again for my sins because I know Him Personaly!!the end. and until every one can testafy to non beliefers with out a smoke sceen of my fact vs. there fact... its not a good fight because there will always be some one out there how wont believe and will digg up "FACTS ACCORDING TO SOME BIG WIGG" Although the book does make for a lively decussion and a great way to open the door to Jesus. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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<img src="/images/graemlins/rolling.gif" alt="" />as for the 29% that would indecate that there are 29% of the poll who willingly believe a lie because they cannot or will not believe in Jesus which means the problem does not lie in the book and the theorys there in but in the heart of the believer or non believer. You Dont believe in God because a dust old Bible says you should or your family says you should or some big wig church guy says you should. the same is true of a non believer they believe in what ever because that is there way of not coming to the Lord for what ever handy excuse. think about your walk with God. <img src="/images/graemlins/angel.gif" alt="" /> and why you believe and how you got to this point. that or a veriation of that has to happen for others. and i an up a creek with no pattle if you just picked up a Bible or heard some big wigg say you should become a christian and you did but i think you know where i am going with this. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


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I agree with you. Many people don't want to know the truth because they think the life they are living is better than that of God and don't want to give up their so called freedoms. My life became much freer when I re found God then when I was drinking and partying and all that. It was fun but I was always missing something, a peace and contentment that I have now.

I'm sorry to hear that the churches in your area band it and are railing against it. My church brought the book in for a 4 week sermon and addressed the conspiracy head on with the truth outside of the Bible and within the Bible. It was very interesting and thought provoking and only confirmed that Jesus and the Bible are truth.

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Quote:
My church brought the book in for a 4 week sermon and addressed the conspiracy head on with the truth outside of the Bible and within the Bible. It was very interesting and thought provoking and only confirmed that Jesus and the Bible are truth.


I suppose that makes about as much sense as those groups who use CS Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia" as part of their religious instruction.

Categorizing Dan Brown's work as part of some greater conspiracy against... what--the Church, Christianity, religion?... seems a bit of a stretch to me. If he'd claimed it was a factual account, had been sponsored by some sort of anti-something group, was head of some anti-something group, etc. I might buy the conspiracy bit.

But this is a work of fiction. With just the tiniest smidgen of fact... just enough to make interesting reading.

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I really didn't like the book all that much, although I found the ideas behind it amazing, and necessary in this day and age. The sacred feminine, what a great phrase for something many of us study under various other guises, such as paganism or Wicca.

Anyway, I'd classify this book as fact based on theory.

And some interesting theory too. I can't get over one thing, a parsing of letters which may be quite relevant:

san greal = the grail
sang real = holy blood


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Quote:
Why should his wife be worshiped as a goddess?


I come from the life view that all women are the Goddess. At a minimum, manifestations of her.

It's easy to see why the church is against the idea of Mary having his baby. Then you'd have a dynasty and they couldn't choose who gets to be pope.

The Priory of Scion is an admitted hoax, so admitted by the man who began it. However, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The P of S hoax has little to do with the overall concept of Mary being his wife and having his baby.

Read the Gospel of Mary. Read the Nag Hammadi documents found in Egypt, as well as the Gnostic Gospels. In them, you will find that Mary was "loved more" and "differently" than the other apostles. She was also first to observe Christ after the ressurection. She is not just an apostle but a very high ranking one, and perhaps his closest one, according to documents written quite close in time to his death.

There is also the legend of the Mary with "servant" Sarah who came on an oarless boat to the coast of France. Sarah means Princess in Hebrew. While that may have little meaning, who was this Mary who arrived there from Egypt? We do know Magdalene went to Egypt with Joseph and his mother, Mary. Did they stay together because she was their daughter-in-law? Why was the true identity of Mary's "servant" kept when they reached France? You'd have to have a good reason to hide the identity of your own daughter. Why is she worshipped there today (long before any of this code uproar started)?

Lastly, the cup or vessel (V) has long been associated with the feminine in pagan traditions, as has the dagger or point ^ represented the masculine. To not realize that they may be combined in symbolism in some cultures today is to not understand the history of male/female god/goddess worship.


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ok cant figure out the quote thing but i am achirstian and i have wondered if the Cannon (the people who selected the books for the Bible) did not let some books in that said some thing about women... after all back in the day women were less than human... why would they think God would give women instuction other then submett to husband and all that jass. so it may be possable that there were ather books. my queastion is how do we know that all of those "extra" books are God inspired and not imaganitive? how do you pick and choose the books you believe and dont believe in? and where you draw the line. 600 years AD or 2050 AD?

here is a nother thought provoing thing. What would have been the point of Jesus haveing a line of desenance? If God sent Jesus to Die for our sins on Calvery to save the world why then would He not die and Raise again in Body on the third day? just like the Bible says? Lee


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There are 5000 complete copies of the gospels found throughout the ancient world. These copies match by 98.5% the other 1.5% are grammerical differences.

There were 54 copies of the Gnostic Bibles found together in Eygypt. The Gnostic beliefs in these books vary from each other. The one underlying belief is that you attain spiritual fullfillment within yourself and not through God or Jesus. They are a mix of Eastern Religion Philosophies with Christian Characters.

The Gnostics were not found complete and there are missing pieces.

Mary was a diciple on Jesus there were hundreds of diciples and only 12 aposels.

Jesus loved Mary because of her unending devotion and love for him, she never doubted him and honoured him more than any other diciple. All the aposels at one time or other either doubted him, looked for selfish rewards, deserted him, or betrayed him. Mary always stayed with him, along with the other Mary and another Women. This shows that women are very important to Jesus and God. It does not make them all goddesses.

The books that were put into the Bible was decided in 325AD at the council of Nicene. There were a number of criteria each book had to pass:

Had to be written before 100 years after Jesus' death
Had to be written by an aposel or a contemporary of
Had to be fully accepted as doctrine by the early church already
The books were either accepted as a whole or rejected, none were edited.
The doctrine in the book had to reflect the ideals and teachings of Jesus and the Old Testement

The Gnostics do not fall into any of these catagories.

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The Council of Nicea began the era of suppression in the Catholic church. You'd think they'd want to include all good writings, especially those by Mary, who was quite important to Christ.

The entire Catholic religion is very anti-woman, I agree with you, freebubbles. You have a woman demanding the head of John the Baptist, the original sin being woman created. There is no need for it. As God created mankind in his own image, all men and women are gods and goddesses.

After the Council of Nicea, if you did not follow what they chose to be in the bible, you would be killed, and many priests were killed and many books burned. This is not Christian. I don't believe they followed their own rules; many turned from the church at that time because of the contradiction.

And the reason we don't have complete copies today is because of, and not indicative of the paucity of meaning in, the burning and destruction of anything not following within their new political order.

I do not believe in the suppression of any book. I think we were given free will and intelligence to determine for ourselves what is valid and what is not. I like the internal seeking that Mary spoke of; I believe this is closer to what Jesus meant. He was challenging the old order, the handing over of your free will to a priest to tell you what is right to do and what is wrong.

Of course, I'm Buddhist/pagan and I believe in the book of no book. Books are usually used as weapons against and not paths to.


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intersting!

Carennedy, I was not sugesting Change the Bible at all. What I was wondering is... ok the Cannon split over the (can spell the books) "extra Books" in the Catholic Bible. why. I am Nazerine so i know VERY LITTLE about other relgions but I feel called to dig in to them and learn more. I am trying to understand what they belive and why. and I would like to read the Dead Sea Scrolls, Gnostic, or any other book from that time. but what i want to know is how do i know if the coppy of the Dead Sea Scrolls is a copy of the originaly and not some Authers opinion or imagineagtion of what it says. I know when i pick up a Bible its the Bible because i was raised reading it...but the others i dont even know whats suppost to be in them.lol
any ways sorry for the mix up.

Go Barbaro, Read Genisis 3 the Fall of Man.
Poltics has Made women the blame for the fall of man but Adam played his part too. While the serpent was talking to eve were was Adam her protector her night in shine armor. verus s6...and that the tree wasdesirable to make one wise, she took from is fruit and ate; and she also gave to her husband WITH HER and he ate.
Adam stood right by her side and heard every word new the exact same thing she did and he did not stop any of it he JOINED IN.
this explanes a lot. what is the worst thing a man can do to irratant you... for his to sit and do nothing say nothing. then blame me!!!

I agree with churches being anti-women read also Proverbs 31 the perfect woman. I do not think that God intended for His church to put down women. but there are churches out there who see that man played a big part in the fall of man. some churches are enlighted enough to realize that Mary and the other women was Just as important to the early church as the men. and you are 100% right Mary did not leave Jesus or Doubt Him. It was after all WOMEN that Jesus showed Him self to first!!! but i would really like to know what good would it do for Jesus to have a line of Desenance and If Mary Magdelina was the Wife and Mother Why would she run back and tell every one that He was Alive and Well if it was a conpirace and all of them were in on it? what would be the Point of God sending His Son to Die for our sins and raise on the third day, if he did not really die and had a wife and kids? this dont make no cents to me explane please


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It's all theory, but I don't think the theory has any conspiracy on Mary's part but on the church's part. As for the baby, the theory is she was his wife and was carrying the baby before he was crucified.

For me, I am very open-minded; that means I don't hold up any one book and say this or that is the truth. That sword cuts both ways in discussion with some relgious folk. They hold some things as absolute truth, and expect others to believe that too.

I hope you all understand this as I mean it, with kindness. I view all writings as the works of man. They may be inspired, as we are all inspired by our "muses," but they are still fallible - written down by man and subject to mistakes.

So to attempt to prove something that all Catholics believe as fact by citing to the very book that the myths originated from is circular logic. I could point to Harry Potter and say that on page 32, line 17, it says that to make polyjuice potion you need...but the whole idea of polyjuice CAME FROM the book itself. It's just circular reasoning that is actually a logical fallacy.

See what I'm saying? To each his own, and if any choose to believe that the gnostic gospels are not good, or the Nag Hammadi should have less weight than, in relation to the bible, that's fine.

However, I choose to believe in reading all text and not putting more weight on one that the others. That gives me the free will God gave us, and uses the intelligence I was born with. Ultimately, I am left after a lifetime of reading with an understanding that all religions are talking about the same thing. It is the idea behind it, and not the text, that matters.


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okay point taken. your right that it is circular logic and im not tryong to say my believes are better then your or anybody elses. I just wanted to point out that there are major differnces beteween God and church politics over time. I was raise that CHURCH BELIEVES are GOD. I do not believe that in any way shape or form. now. i want to learn more about other religions because I think they all strive for the same thing Peace and Good will to all... but i dont know what other relgions believe or where they come from ect. thats what i am working on but most of my sorces are books i have read that are wrote from Christian auther and have heavly oppions that i think may not be true. for instanse; your Buddhist/ Pagan Right? ok so the book i read just said that Buddhist believe in reincarnation and that the hight thing you can hope to come back is a cockroach and the lowest is a woman. then it talks about how wrong that is and why. this struck me as officive both to my intelagence and to the Buddhist. maybe im wrong but for a relgian that old and with that many followers... something is wrong with the book or auther one. I live in Tx so there are not many Buddhist here. so this is my way of learning... and i hope that is not offending you or anyone else. I am open minded too for the most part even if im not looking for a new religian i think i need to learn more about what other believe and why to inlighten myself. does that make scence?


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Most Buddhist teachings (particularly the Zen kind, for there are many sects) come in the form of koans. Koans are riddles. What you described is a riddle and not to be taken literally.

Buddhism is a path, not an end destination. It's all about the process. The process IS the content. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Paganism says the same thing. The process is the content.
Again, however, there are many forms of paganism. Gardnerian is one. Basically there are male and female gods. Female has three aspects: maid, mother and crone. Male has two: unbearded god (young male) and bearded or dying god (Kernnunos and Pan). It's sort of a ying/yang interaction between the two that they see reflected in all life. i.e., Spring is the maid, fall the mother, winter the crone.

My advice to you is to get a comprehensive book that touches on all of them and shows how all the world's "myths" for lack of a better word, share the same elements.

Joseph Campbell was a scholar who did such an analysis, and I would recommend any of his books, or tapes. It can get a bit mind-bending because the stuff he talks about is deep, but he will take you through early man (prehistory), pagan beginnings, Arthurian legends, buddhism and catholicism, touching on each one. I can't recommend him more.


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Also want to point out, that is where Catholicism fails IMHO.

Woman is either whore/harlot or virgin mother. This is imbalanced and provides modern woman reading the bible with little guidence or self-identity within the pages. Face it, we can't be both virgins and mothers at the same time. It is an impossible standard that does not recognize the true value of women, nor who they really are.

If Catholicism wants to continue to be of use to all people, they need to confront the sacred feminine. There is much sacred about woman, she feeds, grows and nurtures all mankind. It is not in her virginity or sexual prowess that she should be celebrated, but in all her aspects, whole, powerful and strong. An independent being, requiring consorts but not being defined by them.

When you get Campbell, you will notice that he makes an argument that the beginning of male-oriented religions begins with Sargon the Great. At this time, war without purpose (such as territory or food) begins. It has been here ever since patriarchal religions dominated the planet and supplanted the nature religions that held woman as the greater of the two genders. It makes one think.


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The overly masculine church is a result of the letters of Paul. I have issues with the writings of Paul and ended up jumping over them to read James and Peter. This then became a larger issue because the church took Paul's recommendation that a church leader should not marry and this resulted in a lot of men who had no experience of women making the rules. This was not God's intention.

I don't want to bash the catholic church because people like Mother Theresa have come out of it's ranks. But I do believe in the Machivelli statement that Power Corrupts but Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. The best thing for the Church was the reformation.

The times when all God's people shined as a glaring example of faith and Christ is during times of persecution. During times of power and wealth Christians are a stain on God's reputation.

Paul did not like women from the sound of it and had little use for them.

God and Jesus have a very important use for women and hold them in high regard. Women are created equal and are more faithful. There are many many examples of great women in the Bible.

The issue is not with God, Jesus or the Bible's view of women but history's view and the status that man has put on women and women put on each other. Man is called to love their wife as Christ loved the church. The church is his followers and he died as a sacrifice for us in order to save our souls. A husband is called to sacrifice himself for his wife. He is called to be a protector and a spiritual leader within the home. When the husband is judged he will be judged largely on how he treated his wife and the role he played in the home.

Satan has done a wonderful job of perverting the image of God through the masculinity and power of the church, but this must not reflect your view of God and what he meant for his church to be. Don't let the Church skew your search for God's truth, for the Catholic Church through history is a very bad example of God's truth.

To get way off topic, submit does not mean to bow down and take it, no matter what it is. Submit means to respect your husband. The meaning of the word has been distorted by man, not God. Read and contemporary self help relationship book and they will stress that the husband needs respect.

FYI The Inquest and corruption of the church was during the 1200s AD 1000 years after the Council of Nicene, it took 1000 years before they started to persecute those that didn't believe the same as them. Many of the copies we have today are from the time when Christians were persecuted and thrown to the lions.

The dead sea scrolls are not a seperate religion. They are copies of the old testement that prove the copies we have today are extremly accurate. So if you've read the old testement you've read the dead sea scrolls.

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To touch on the whore / virgin thing.

There are many heroines in the Bible that are neither.

Ruth who stands by her mother in law and her God by sacrificing her life of status.

Ester who faces certain death to save her people.

Mary Magdaline, who wasn't the whore Jesus saved, is an example of complete love and devotion for God.

Peter's Mother in Law who was an example of servitude to others.

Miriam, the sister of Moses, who bravely saved her brother and became a priestess of the iserealites. It is the song of Miriam that is sung after they are saved by the Red Sea parting.

Mary, the sister of Martha and Lazarus, who is an example of prioitizing the important.

Martha, the sister of Mary and Lazarus, who is an example of hard work and hostess.

The women of the well, who is an example of turning ones life around for God.

There are so many women in the Bible who make a difference. God made sure that women were an important part of the Bible.

How many History books mention women, unless they are rulers, and the contribution they made to society?

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During time of power Chirstians are a stain on God reputation!! lol i like that one. the Holy cursade the Salem witch trials, and the spanich inquasision, even killing indians when the pilgarms can to amarica. a Navajo Boy once said tome "I believe the teachings of Jesus but i can not believe in a one a day church/religian where you have to go to a brick and stone building to find Him. and the people who follow Him know little about His teaching and understand nothing of Him. I am sure i have asked before but what religion are ya'll? just curious.


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Do you know any tittles by Joseph Cambell? I would like to read some of his books!!


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I just came back from watching the movie. A good see.

However, I can understand how the men of the early church would not emphasis the feminine, since women were less than chattle in those days and the story is about a man, Jesus.

The movie though, I don't get it. Not only do they take the feminine out of the sacred feminine but they make Robert Langdon look like a genius. Poor Sophie is along for the ride and can't solve a riddle for the life of her. Isn't this suppost to be a story that glorifies the female? The poor detective comes out looking like a mislead soul.

The ending, come on where did that come from? Did Tom Hanks need his ego stroked that much that they had to rewrite the whole ending so he would be the only hero in the story? No herione's here ladies, Grandma's just havin tea with the ladies. Using the side entrance of the Priories church by the way.

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I have not seen it yet is it kinda like national treasure? seek find clue seek find clue yea I did it i found the Treasure only in DaVince its more like I the man and I am still full of it type thing?
I hope that ok to post (full of it) let me know.


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ack! they messed with the book that much? haven't seen the movie yet; it's always painful to watch a movie from a book. Chronicles of Narnia did the book justice. But oftentimes, it's way different.

as for your other statement about persecution, Carennedy, I'm not sure what you mean. Christians were thrown to the lions early on, as were Jews. During Nero's rein (60 AD), he stepped it up. Rome fell as an empire in roughly 650 BD. By 1000, the western world was full on in the Dark Ages, 500 years distinguished by its lack of art and progression. Could that be because all art necessarily HAD to be of things from the bible?

Anyway, perhaps we are talking two different things. At and during and after the Council of Nicea, religious men were pressured and terrorized if they did not go 1) the way of Christianity, and 2) the specific Christianity the council decided was THE one.

For 50 years after 330 AD, bishops and priests were murdered, excommunicated, threatened with heresy, and books were burned. Some books were certainly lost forever. What we have left is a piece of a whole. One should look at the whole for themselves, and not let the word of men who surely had politics in mind as well as divinity, make the deciding vote for them. Over time, some books have revealed themselves.


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My religion? Like I said, I believe all touch on the same things; I find validity in all.

I am a bit Buddhist. I am a bit Pagan. I've been to Israel and I have a close relationship with Jesus based on some things that happened to me there. Little miracles but amazing to me. I love Jesus' message too. I've been to Japan and I really like Shinto. I am 1/4 Huichol Indian and I feel great affinity for Native teachings. I'm nothing in specific and yet all things in general.

There should never be any harm to a person experiencing all things in life. I grow very hesitant when I find groups who ask you to only read "their" book. You are your own free moral agent and should let no one define you. The Creatrix herself gave you that free will and that intelligence. Because we are often indoctrinated as children (which he discusses), ppl stop and don't seek out more information.

I would recommend you start with a general public title (in which he doesn't get so 'out there' with the deep philosophy). Hero With a Thousand Faces is the title of one such book and will show you how all cultures have similar myths.

Next, I'd recommend Transformations of Myth Through Time. Mine is audio.

Go to Campbell's website (he is deceased but started a foundation for the discussion and promotion of his ideas): HERE


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thank you for the title and author i am on a quest/jorney of my own ifeel led to find out what others believe and why and the more i look there more i have to dig in to my own believe to find why i believe...this i did not expect not that i will change religains but i am learning that some of what i have been teach is from steriotype and fear and some of it i dont know if i believe it or not because when everything boils out i have no connection except well its in the Bible.. I belive the Bible so... but some of the time what i thought was in the bible some where its not.. im furstated sort of I am kinda chin deep in info mation and i love that but i feel like im chacing my tail?!


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Through out my 20's I researched many different ideologies and religions. Everything from New Age to Mormonism to 7th day Adventist, to muslim, etc... About a year and a half ago I started reading the Bible and found my life changed for the better. I changed from the inside and the words spoke to me more than any other. The day's I start by reading the Bible and praying are the best days. I am not stressed anymore, I have more patience, I have an inner peace, I don't swear anymore, and I see the world in a different light. These changes just happened without any work on my part, it just happened as I read the Bible.

I always believed, that there are many religions out there because different people need different things in their spiritual life. The three main religions of the one God are Judism, Muslim, and Christianity. As for the rest I never found anything in them that moved me or rang true for me.

As for the Catholic Church persecution -- it started in the early 1000s during the middle ages when superstition and corruption were rampent. It was during this time the inquisition and many other atrocities took place in the name of God. Not something the Catholic Church should be proud of and they have a lot of damage control to do. They are the most secretive society out there and they have many secrets that should come to light for the truth to shine.

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WOw that explains a lot about why i get different answer to question when i ask them anything and its hard to research using book because of that. anyway I also find that reading the Bible everyday helps me. with all of my research if i did not i would be a leaf in the wind. lol anyway as i study the Bible with out a devotional or using some one else's interpretation of it i have learn a lot more because i have to think about it more and find out what God is trying to say to me personally. I believe that God is a generic term or title because all religions have a god. but the God of the Bible i have found out has a Name Jehovah or Yew ah and spell check could not help with spelling sorry. anyways back in the old days the Monks came to believe that Gods Name was to Holy to write or say so they replaced the NAME of God with LORD. I have always wondered how that gels with REv.21:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the Plagues which are written in this book: 19 and if any one takes away from the words of these words of the book of of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are as written. and De4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments or the LORD your God which i command you.
I would be very interested to know. I does not change my belief but....


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If the Catholic Church wasn't so secretive with its vast collection of archives and works then it wouldn't be attacked so much. God does not want the church to be secretive, he wants it to be open so everyone has a chance to explore the truth.

Did you know that the 7th day Adventists believe that the Pope is the Beast of Revelation?

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i like the way you think. tell me if someone in you church asked you a question about a chaper in the Bible do you help them by explaning what you believe and why then help them try to come to there own conclution or do you think it best that they believe what you believe because thats what GOD ment?

this is not and attack because my next question is why did you pick the one you did?

im trying to understand the last one and kinda takeing a poll you could say.


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Quote:
Through out my 20's I researched many different ideologies and religions. Everything from New Age to Mormonism to 7th day Adventist, to muslim, etc...

As for the rest I never found anything in them that moved me or rang true for me.


many of the things you say, bear foundation for why, after 40 years or so of active participation, I was content to leave catholicism aside....

I applaud and commend your Life-long search for a Path that bests suits your mode of travel.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I personally pursue a Buddhist Path, because unlike your good self ((no criticism intended or implied,at all, by the way - please understand and believe that) EVeRYTHING I found in Buddhism rang true for me - simply because as a Buddhist, I am urged and encouraged to find the Truth in everything, for myself. I am positively urged to research and test everything that comes my way, for the Authentic, the True and the Holy.
Otherwise, to leave it aside.....

Good post.

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Cool,I am researching Wicca at the monent and plan to go thourgh all religions too but one step at a time i have found that studing Wicca so far i find many thing in commen with the Bible (not so much the church) but I find that i realy dig in more to what the Bible says andfind that the church ignores or down plays or twist the meaning or think that i twisted it one. Most of my family does not approve of my research but I am called to do it. i have always asked question and know one answer and most put me down for it...


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Wicca and Buddhism are very similar...In fact, my Father-in-law's wife, who has practised wicca for over 20 years, is now adhering to a buddhist path, and has left Wicca to one side....

But each must practise as they seek and find....

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When I found what felt true for me I became inspired to continue with it. To never stop. I look forward to church every sunday, I feel like I belong, I don't feel uncomfortable, and it rings true inside me.

I'm not saying that what I believe is the one and only way for everyone. I just share what I believe to be truth and why I believe it is truth. Those who are truly seeking their own truth will benefit from it.

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Many may wonder what someone believes has to do with the Da Vinci Code. The book is an attack of the most important Christian belief - That Jesus is the son of God.

If Jesus is not the Son of God then Christianity has no validity.

What the Catholic Church has done in the past is terrible and not of God. Many of its traditions are non biblical. But that is no reason non at all to cast Christianity and God aside as false.

Some so called Christians walk around with a holier than thou attitude, this is not Christian and not an example of God or true Christianity.

If you are a true seeker than it is important to read the Bible, find a true Christian who embodies characteristics true of Jesus - humility, servitude, peace, acceptance, and love.

Good Luck on your search, I pray that you find your truth, wherever that is.

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Quote:
If Jesus is not the Son of God then Christianity has no validity.


I find after some thought, that I cannot entirely agree with this statement...
jews and Moslems both know of Jesus' existence - they just view him in different terms...it is only Christians who view him in a different Light...But I do not think that whether this is proved, disproved, accepted or not accepted, has any bearings on a Christian's Love for God, or shakes the foundations of their Faith....
Jesus was God Made Flesh... he was a man, and as such, was as vulnerable to impermanence and death as any Mortal - that was the whole point.
It is only this small matter of his resurrection from the dead which sets him aside from ordinary folk - and believe it, or believe it not, it is his ministry and work, during his documented Life, which matters.... After all, he did a whole lot more BEFORE his crucifixion, than after it....

Little significance is attached to what he did after rising from the tomb... the focus of attention, with regard to his work, is aimed entirely at his time amongst the living.

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If Jesus is not the Son of God then Christianity has no validity.
It is only this small matter of his resurrection from the dead which sets him aside from ordinary folk - and believe it, or believe it not, it is his ministry and work, during his documented Life, which matters.... After all, he did a whole lot more BEFORE his crucifixion, than after it....
i have to agree know on arugue that Jesus is or was eivl i have not heard anyone say it.

but i have a question. we call Mary mother of God the Virgin Mary why do we as Christian call Jesus the Virgin Jesus? why Doesnt the Bible call Him that?

and there is a big differnce between God (father Son Holy Spirit) and the Bible (i say this because there is meaning lost when you translate it from the Originals into any languge, idtoms, slang from back then and the way they talked back then and how we talk to day.) and the church (often moved by polotics and prejustice and just human mis understanding. for example KKK thought slavery was Biblical and Killing Black and Jews was God will). so the question here is not God or no God Jesus man or God or God-man it really. who do you serve and worship God (father Son Holy Stirit) or Bible or Church. if you truly believe in God you study the Bible and what ever you are call or lead to study to find the truth and help you find the way and yes i think you can read anything you want to find truth as long as it chechs out with what you know to be true and the bible does not directlysay its wrong or you feel it is wrong. on the other hand i dont think you should use anything to bend it to your will. if you worship the Bible and only the bible then you tend to miss out on the Joy of a Liveing God and get tangled up in memorizing chaper and verus and Law. it you worship the church then you get tangled up in who is the best christian and denomenation and politcs.


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It is widely accepted amongst theologians, historians and experts and authorities of the ancient hebrew texts, that the word translated as "Virgin" actually just means "young Woman".... But the Virgin Label has stuck.... Mary was in all probability only a child of around 12 or 13 when she was purpotedly betrothed to Joseph - this only sounds incredible or warped to our modern social way of thinking - in those days, it was completely normal and acceptable that girls were promised in marriage at a very young age (by our standards today)... The moment they began menstruating, basically, they were of marriageable state.....

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old enough to bleed old enough to breed. it an old saying i my family. my grand mother was 13 when she was married. I have also heard that back at the time they were writting the bible it ment starnger from a forin land. and in Allien means illegan imagrant not little green men from mars.


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Mary was very young and when whe became pregnant Joseph her to be betrothed was going to divorce her, even though engaged he would have to divorce her in order to cancel the wedding. Mary would be stoned to death because she was pregnant. Instead, God sent an angel to Joseph in a dream and he married her.

Judism, Muslim and Christians all believe in the same God. Muslim and Judism is different due to the decendents of Abraham. Abraham had two sons one Ishmeal with Hagar, his wife's servant, and the other Isaac with his wife Sara. The decendents of Ishmael are the Arabs, and those of Isaac are the Jews.

Christianity came out of Judism. What sets Christianity apart from Judism is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, or the Messiah. If Jesus was just a great prophet then there would be no Christians just Jewish people. It is his sacrifice on the cross and his reserection that allow us to be saved and enter into a personal relationship with God. Jesus was man - God in the flesh, and he is God. He came to earth to experience human frailty and become a sinless sacrifice, the last sacrifice, to atone for the sins of the world. Without this Christianity does not exist. It is this one act that is the most important part of his ministry, his words, miricles, and life are only a glimpse of what life with God will be like.

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virgin: 3933
parqevno� Parthenos (par-then'-os); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 3933


a virgin
a marriageable maiden
a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
one's marriageable daughter
a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
one who has never had intercourse with women

this is what i found in Storngs whatchamacall it Lexicon i think...


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Quote:
the Da Vinci Code . . . The book is an attack of the most important Christian belief - That Jesus is the son of God.


I do not believe this is what the book is about at all. It puts forth a theory that Jesus (son of God or not) had a wife who had his baby.

The book also has a second theory that has nothing to do with the above one (altho, it does dovetail nicely into it). And that is that the Catholic Church sought to repress early forms of Goddess worship by denouncing the sacred feminine. In the book, the keepers of this secret had to go underground, as you recall.

I appreciated your notations of strong females in the Bible, but none of them really represent a holy woman in the way that other religions or paths do. A woman who is not defined by men, but stands alone as a goddess figure, such as the Isis cults or Isis herself. Ishtar, Innana, and the like. Isis is the sister of Osiris, but it is she alone who goes out to find his pieces and reconstruct him, altho as God of the Underworld for she cannot find the last piece. In this way, the Isis myth shows us that woman creates life.

The book asks us to look at the sacred feminine, determine whether it has had its due accord in this religion, and even asks us to realize that balance must be had between the sacred masculine AND feminine.

All of this is independent of Jesus as the son of God, and even independent of Mary as his wife, since the sacred feminine existed long before Catholicism.


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The Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church is strongly worshiped and prayed to. She has godess status within the Catholic Church which goes against the commandment thou shalt not have any other Gods before me. There are many Female saints that Catholics pray to as well.

The church is also filled with idols, religious icons or not they are idols. Which again breaks a commandment, the iseralites coming out of Eygpt broke the same commandment and had to wonder the desert for 40 years.

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Zebra
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Quote:
The Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church is strongly worshiped and prayed to. She has godess status within the Catholic Church which goes against the commandment thou shalt not have any other Gods before me.


Forgive me - I do not do this to be argumentative, and I fully appreciate that I am not a practising Christian - but as an ex-Catholic of over 40 years standing, this comment, whilst understandable, is actually incorrect.

Mary has always been, and always shall be regarded as a woman who has a unique and special place in God's heart, and in the lives of Catholics - she denotes the Maternal and Nourishing, protective quality of the Church (and note that the Church bears the prefix 'Mother' not 'Father') - But she certainly does not bear 'Goddess status'..She is, according to the Church, a shining example of Womanhood, Wisdom, and Femininity, and is looked upon by women of the church - both ordained and in the congregation, as a primary source of comfort and support....
In years gone by, there was a fear amongst the catholic hierarchy that her role was becoming too prominent, but this was a storm in a teacup....
However, it is widely accepted by many Catholic clergy, that the Holy Spirit - A 'member' of the Holy trinity - is representative of the Wondrous love between God and Christ, and God and mankind, and Christ and Mankind.... and has in my hearing, always been referred to in the feminine.

Last edited by Alexandra; 05/30/06 03:16 PM.
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I am not a catholic, so I do apologize. As an outsider it seems as though she has a very prominate role and is at worship status. Sorry I misunderstood.

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That's not a problem in the slightest.... This is how we learn and progress, is it not? By sharing and by mutually respectful discussion. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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if the church ONLY believe is in the birth and death of Christ then the have missed the biggest point...His life was the reason that God sent Him. so we could see how we are suppost to live? we focus on Salvation thourgh the Blood of Christ but not living the way he show us and COMMANED us to live. WE worship Jesus and Jesus Worshiped God. Jesus was the example for us to live by not worship His death and birth. Yes those are inportent but there is so much more. notic that not many movies books or otherwise denine that Jesus lived. they focus on birth and death to detory our beliefs because these is where are focus lies. they agree that Juesus lived so... there the door tell about His live what He did, what He said and no where in the Bible do i see Christ saying "hi am Jesus and my mom was a virgin worship me. but he does say I am the way the Truth and the Light the ONLY way to My Father is thourgh Me. and Follow me and i will make you a Fisher of Men. in my oppinon Follow me= the way he lifed and His teachings)


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freebubbles, you are right about his life being an example for us all. What you are missing though is that if he didn't die and rise again then he would be another prophet, a good teacher. The Muslim believe he was a prophet. The Jews belive he was a teacher. It is his status as the son of God that makes Christianity unique from the other two. His life is an example for us all to follow when we live for him. However if you do not believe that he died and rose again then you are not saved, it is through his sacrifice that we are saved not through his good works, or our good works.

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true...good point!! and well said


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Looking for a scientific argument for the real Jesus? check out this article from the Website Does God Exist? Written with a viewpoint of science to prove the existance of God.

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/TheRealJesusOfHistory/TheRealJesusOfHistory.html

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