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Joined: Oct 2004
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
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Eric Norton published a very interesting article in 4 parts at:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27931.asp

The parts cover:

Part 1
By trapping the Russian bear on as many sides as possible, the West is able to continue to spread its own ideas throughout Europe and Asia, as well as ensure a relative lack of competition from a Russia that could easily give the West a real run for its money, if it would ever be given the chance.


Part 2
Who would fill the enormous power vacuum that developed once Soviet power had disintegrated? The West�s biggest fear was that massive Russia would again find the strength it needed to control what had once been under its wing.

Part 3
The American-led �war against terrorism� which began in Afghanistan brought American troops into former Soviet territory for the first time, when Central Asian countries, including Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, allowed the American military to set up bases there

Part 4
A strong Russia is not in the West�s best interests, as Russia would then become a major source of competition in pretty much every respect.

I hope we can begin a discussion here!


Tatiana Erochenko
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Koala
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Thank you, Tatiana, for publishing my article! I'm very impressed with the way you divided it into four logical parts.

I hope people will find it informative, even if they don't necessarily agree with it. I have found that the majority of Russians living in Russia will agree with most of what I have to say, yet the majority of Americans living in America simply dismiss it as "anti-American" propaganda.

I've gotten several different and interesting reactions!

I'm very willing to discuss the article here with anyone who is interested, about what motivated me, what my feelings on the subject are, etc.

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Amoeba
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A reader, Rostyslav Orach, asked me to post his opinion on Eric's series" Trapping The Bear" so this is what I'm doing. I thought, Eric, it could be interesting to discuss. He addresses me as the author but I reassured him. So here goes:

The Bear Dies of Pity


The article of "Trapping The Bear. Part 2" seems to be very biased and blames all of Russia�s down falls, and tears on the West. It is a typical psychology of Russian people to blame some one other then them selves for there own down falls (like the Jews for example, or the West). Tatiana you're a Physiologist and Psychologist and you should know that the worst thing and very unhealthy for a person and especially for a country to feel pity for its self. That is looser type thinking. Like in sports a true champion always takes the responsibility for his wins and losses.



Russia and only Russia has in its own stupid way crippled its people�s ability to grow and create a healthy society. Look at it now. The government is corrupt, and society is filled with degenerates. This argument �Trapping The Bear� you post have no real credibility and sound almost as old communist propaganda trying to find someone to blame.


I think Russia should turn to the great works of a recently passed away poet Ales Adamovich. He argues that the biggest problem in Russia is the inability to look it self in the mirror and admit to its own faults. Russia should apologize for the mischief�s they created to their neighbors in the region, and their own people through out history. We can�t blame others but we have to be at least true to our selves. The true nature of Russia is that it is constantly trapping its self, because of its unhealthy psychological approach to life. Ms. Tatiana Erochenko the true nature of Russia not being a super power goes deeper then just the intervention of the West.

Sincerely,

Rostyslav Orach


Tatiana Erochenko
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Biology
#177236 02/08/05 11:42 AM
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Amoeba
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Eric, I don't know why the readers keep thinking that I am the author, it's clearly stated in the articles that the author is you, Eric Norton! Of course, I explain them but ot post it here and avoid further confusion, I had to edit just a little bit.

So here is one more opinion, what do you think?.

_______________________________________________

Your analysis of the situtation in Ukraine during the election is not correct as well as some of your facts about the division in the country. Please be aware of the following facts.
- Yuschenko was poisoned ,most likely, by local officials who received the poison (dioxin) from one of the producers in the area.
- There was massive election fraud during the original election as witnessed by the hundreds of objective election monitors from around the world.
- There is continual widespread corruption in many of the post soviet states.
- There is constant fraud and intimidation in many of the post soviet states.
- The Ukrainians have been subjugated by the Russians for over 300 years. I have a father-in-law from the western part of Ukraine and my family is from the eastern part of Ukraine. They do not like the Russians because of their forceful occupation of Ukraine for many, many years.
- Over the past several decades there was a systematic attempt by the Russians to Russify Ukraine. Many of the nearly 8 million Russians in Ukraine were forcefully transported or manipulated into settling in Ukraine, while Ukrainians, in the past, were shipped out to Siberia or other God forsaken outposts in a further attempt to Russify Ukraine.
- The authoritarian government in Russia over the years and their tragic treatment of the Ukrainians has produced a part of the country that is subservient to the Russians ,like a dog is subservient to a master that beats him all the time.
-The Russification and the decades of unthinkable mistreatment of the Ukrainian people has produced a sick dependency on Russia in several parts of the country.
That is part of the reason why some parts of Ukraine are still pro- Russian.

Zenon John Kossak


Tatiana Erochenko
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Really, I have no idea why people would think you are the author! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These are very interesting points of discussion. I just need to find the time to address them all. But I will, eventually. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Koala
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Unfortunately, I think this reader is either misunderstanding the facts, or wishes to express the typical reaction I am hearing in Western countries. The whole reason for my writing the article in the first place was to show how Western intervention since the very beginning of the USSR to the present day has had deliberate negative impacts on the Soviet Union and post-Soviet Russia. Interestingly, while the West's general post-Soviet approach to Russia is still that of trying to keep Russia isolated, weak, and poor, the West is treating practically every other former Soviet republic differently. In this case, all the non-Russian former USSR republics (except, perhaps, Belarus) are being encouraged to join the Western fold, move away from Russia. It is a repetition of the late-1980s propaganda, basically saying life with Russia will ensure poverty and repression, whereas life with the West will bring wealth and "freedom". As witnessed, however, such a transition is not always immediate, if it is to even come at all.

[color:"blue"] The article of "Trapping The Bear. Part 2" seems to be very biased and blames all of Russia�s down falls, and tears on the West. It is a typical psychology of Russian people to blame some one other then them selves for there own down falls.... ...the worst thing and very unhealthy for a person and especially for a country to feel pity for its self. That is looser type thinking. Like in sports a true champion always takes the responsibility for his wins and losses. [/color]

I think I showed in the article how the negative factors existing in Russia today are at least partly to blame because of this deliberate negative interference the West has constantly had in place against Russia. In the article, I neglected to mention the economic "advice" given to Russia by the West, especially by the United States, in the immediate post-Soviet period. It is specifically this advice, encouraging Russia to undertake certain reforms it really shouldn't have otherwise, that eventually led to massive economic problems, including a total economic meltdown in 1998. Certainly, Russia and Russians are to blame for this, but it is impossible to ignore the West's "contribution" to such a disaster. It is also impossible to ignore the fact that it was to the West's advantage for such a thing to happen in the first place.

[color:"blue"] Russia and only Russia has in its own stupid way crippled its people�s ability to grow and create a healthy society. Look at it now. The government is corrupt, and society is filled with degenerates. This argument �Trapping The Bear� you post have no real credibility and sound almost as old communist propaganda trying to find someone to blame. [/color]

If there was no Western interference in Russia and the USSR to begin with, then my article would truly be nothing but the propaganda you are talking about. Because of the high level of Western interference, designed solely to bring down the Soviet system, and later, to keep post-Soviet Russia in a weakened position, losing its economic potential, as well as being bullied out of any political, economic, and social interests in the "near-abroad" (former USSR) areas surrounding Russia, it can not be said that Russia alone is to blame for Russia's problems today. That was the whole point of my article.

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I don't even know where to begin to analyze Zenon's statements. When someone is 110% against Russia, and is totally convinced that Russia alone is to blame for everything, period, then it is almost impossible to even begin an analytical discussion. With him, I could simply go back and forth, disputing all of his points, while he disputes all of my points. There would be no net gain for either side.

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Tiger
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Eric,

I liked that Tatyana posted also the comments which do not agree to your article. Did you see on the main page of Society and Culture today? I do not want to comment too much about it but it is good to present the analysis from different viewpoints!


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