Patty Murray, D-Wash., told high school students in Vancouver, Wash., that bin Laden and his supporters have spent years building good will by helping pay for schools, roads and even day care facilities.

"We haven't done that," Murray said. "How would they look at us today if we had been there helping them with some of that rather than just being the people who are going to bomb in Iraq and go to Afghanistan?"

Day care centers?

Bin laden has been turned into a hate figure by the media and he is and was wrong to use terroism against civilians, but bar the violence he is in the right and as usual the americans are in the wrong. it is intresting to note when bin ladens methods were aimed at the soviet union the new york times called hime a "freedom fighter" now his name is barely spoken withot evil been shoved in front of it. it is time the west looked at the problem in an un-biased way, if a random american was asked why al queda are so opposed to america they would probally pop out with some media injuiced ignorant answer, such as "they are jelous of our success", "they dont like free will
" or "they dont like the US troops in saudi". CNN never mentions that the UN estimates 20 Iraqi children die a day due to american sanctions on Iraq and that the US has used there veto 263 times (out of 265 propositions) to stop UN sanctions being imposed on israel. As an end note george bush is a chimp and should be shot he is FAR more dangourous the world than Bin laden.

UN estimates 20 Iraqi children die a day due to american sanctions on Iraq...

Sorry, don't buy it. There has been an oil for food and medicine program in place for years. Unfortunately the money goes to build more palaces. The monies are being misused by the Iraqi government. Therefore, the blame is only to be placed at the Iraqi government's feet.

Hello again everyone. I was back from non-stop labour at University and decided to visit this forum and as always this kind of thread got my attention for it being useless.

You'll never convince an american of USA being what they are, it's against human nature. It's like trying to explain to a kid who loves his parents that his dad drinks way too much, is dumb and takes drugs and generally is a bad person and that his mom is a pro and has ten lovers. He won't believe you, he'll say that his mommy and daddy are the best in the world and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Everyone deffends what is close to him. If you have to be biased, ignorant, arrogant, cynical to do so, then be it ... Do you really expect a USA citizen to say: "Well, yes, you're right. USA is so full of s*** and we are all complete ar******s and we like using everyone, everytime and everywhere we can and all of you out there are loosers - we are gods."? ... will never happen as long as you talk to a more or less normal person.

So if you just want to practice your speach skills after having spent too much time working (like myself <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), be free - express yourself, don't expect this to be a constructive dialogue and to end with a unique conclusion though.

Happy New Year, everyone! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

that is the best analogy ive heard in years, it is amazingly true. Most Europeans (and the rest of the world) can admit their country has faults but Americans seem to think there goverment is an aid agency to the rest of he world, when infact they are in one way or another the cause of the problems. look at the amount of aid they give the world in billions of dollers then look at the amount of money they spent on there military.

Fact: 20 children die a day because of the sanctions.
Fact: 20 children didnt die a day before the sanctions were imposed.
End of story.

The facts man. Get the facts. Go to the library and read about the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.
In Tucson I had the opportunity to meet people from Afghanistan. Yes many years ago the US. helped when the USSR tried to take over and Bin Laden did build schools, Hospitals, roads, etc.
Then he tears apart the hospitals, forbids women to have medical care, etc. Less than 10% of the water is safe for drinking. What did he do that is good for the people? I dare you to name one?
Recently I met a woman whose husband was there. Our group www.prohectlinus.org made & donated handmade quilts, knitted & crocheted blankets for the Children. Check out the www for more info. As a volunteer in a Tucson I have met people from Afghanistan who would love to get red of the "bad" guys. A group of people from our staff went there to help.

Sorry a correction. It should be www.projectlinus.org In Tucson On Lanuary 18th we will have a display and free materials with people will to give instructions on how to make items. Check out www for more information.
We give hundreds of handmade "blankies" to infants, children and teens in traumatic situations.

This isn't the reason Gerogey boy went after the Afgans though (he also killed a fair few bystaders doing it and reduced most of the country to ruble before putting an equally dodgy goverment in), it was his own selfish American intrests. If he is going to take out countries with a history of civil rights abuses why dosnt he attack china? Or he could blow up the old USA for there old racist habits? Im not saying OBL is a good guy, hes not but GWB is much more dangerous to world peace and in the end youve got to sypathise with Osma- hes willing to die for his cause, GWB was a desserter!

Hey guys ... throw a stone at me if in heart you disagree with following:

USA don't give a [censored] about what happens in the rest of the world unless it has something to do with them. It's quite normal, nothing bad. They use beautiful words to promote selfish interests. Nothing really wrong with it. Sometimes those interest can coincide with other mortal people' too - good for them. I'm talking about USA government - those who decide and rule, not all people or some organisations.

Hmmm, so you basically recommend a British approach? Britain has no permanent friends, as Winston Chruchill once said, only permanent interests.

Yep, he was a wise guy, you know ... Good for his country, bad for the rest. For instance, he also said that Britain would support anyone who had been loosing the war, be that USSR or Germany, to make it longer and more devastating. Anyways, Britain is a friend of USA, cause otherwise they would have to be friend of noone, noone "wants" them in Europe ... They are an echo of USA's opinion in Europe. You can count on fingers those times when Britain would oppose to USA's idea ... it would have to be really weird and out of the line ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What I say, is just stop trying to convince someone of them being wrong, it is stupid and fruitless. You can't really expect a person to say "I'm wrong" or "I agree with you", since that would put the person in a not very bright light. I guess you (USA citizens) do know why you government does this or that and save the beautiful words for the world and also why there is so many people who ... errrr ... well, basically hate you (not you, the country as a whole). If you don't - bad for you.

Today is the first day of a new year, be happy! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is interesting because whenever I am living in or travelling in Europe I never get this attitude. (Okay, there might be a drunk in a bar...) Most Italians, Germans, Belgians, etc., have always expressed their support for the United States and (gasp!) gratitude for our "moral leadership." You know, like continuing to pressure France to stop atomic testings. Oh, that's right, the Italians support the United States in it's attempt to have Iraq be held accountable for the UN mandates.

Oh, really? Well, don't get too excited. All those people probably didn't want to offend you or argue with you ... OR, you happen to know some kind of weird minority. Nobody likes to be manipulated.

I absolutely cannot believe the [censored] I am reading here!! Praising Bin Laden?? Willing to die for his cause??? Yep, tell that to the poor unsuspecting people that went to work in the twin towers on 9-11--well, the ones that survived! Men like this(Sadam included)are pure evil and probably on the brink of insanity! I am not exactly all hip about war either, but something has to be done..and soon! I'm not sure where you all are from, but if you had something like 9-11 happen close to you, I'm sure you would feel differently! It was a horrible day for me, personally, and I still have nightmares and I don't want myself or my loved ones to ever have to go thru anything like that again!

Talk about buying into the lie!!!!! I have never heard of such an unpatriotic opinion. To call yourself "unbiased" and "objective"..... I've never been more embarrassed by another american. I truly believe that if you live in a country it is because you embrace the underlying values that that country assures for you. As for me, I will always support the United States of America and I choose to live under the blanket of freedom provided to me by a free government and society. I fully support our leadership, that is voted into power by me. I will always support the armed forces of this country of which I was a part. I will always support the soldiers that fight for me and demonstrate the bravery that this country was built on. I suggest that if you don't, you go live in another country. I know how priveledged I am to live here and have the freedom to post here and express my opinions openly and honestly without fear of death or torture. I embrace the freedom to practice any religion I choose to without fear of death or torture because I don't follow the governments choice of god I believe in. I am able to work and make money in any amount that I want to without the fear that the governemnt or other leadership will step in and decide that I can't make that much and must give up some in order to not over power my government or other powers to be. So if your going to be "unbiased" or "objective", then I guess you'd prefer to live in a society that is governed by a dictator that will dictate everything you do any time you want to do it and take the risk of repercussions being doled out onto your family, loved ones and yourself. Like I said, I've never been more embarrassed than I am now of another american as I am of the one who spits in the face of our fore-fathers who saved us from a future of tyranny and desolation.