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#139384 09/01/02 08:26 PM
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Do you care if your wine is bottled with a synthetic cork? Do you insist on real cork?

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#139385 09/02/02 05:26 PM
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I had preferred, until recently, only corked wines. However, with the declining cork tree population and with the bacteria causing the destruction of so many cases of European wines, I am becoming more forgiving on that point. Though, I am still kind of "snobby" about the issue - LOL, just ask my hubby.

Kitty


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#139386 09/02/02 09:55 PM
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I used to see synthetic corks as "slumming it." Now I've come across some very good wines with synthetic corks. The reasons you pointed out Kitty are excellent ones for not using real cork. Have you seen the hybrid corks, the top half synthetic and the bottom half real cork. The wine only touches the real cork portion.

#139387 09/02/02 10:10 PM
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No, I have not seen those! Which labels are using them? I would be most interested to try those wines.

Kitty


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#139388 09/03/02 07:20 PM
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I am WAY against natural cork. You can't imagine how many beautiful wines I have had that were destroyed by cork problems. I would MUCH rather have plastic and have great wine. PLASTIC PLASTIC PLASTIC. I want the wine to taste great. I don't care what kind of bottle or cork is involved!


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#139389 09/05/02 12:21 AM
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I really don't care if it has synthetic cork. I read an article recently (here) about the bacteria that sometimes effects that natural cork and gets into the wine.

#139390 09/09/02 02:38 PM
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Definitely cork tree corks - always. No compromises.

#139391 09/09/02 03:38 PM
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AINTD, doesn't it bother you that about 10% (if not more) of the bottles you pay good money for are destroyed by the cork mold? This isn't just my guess, it's an often tested fact. The destruction ranges from a mild bad taste to a completely undrinkable wine. If I'm paying money for a wine, I don't want to open it and find it undrinkable ...

Again, think of all the new wine drinkers out there that open a bottle, realize they don't like how it tastes, and think they just don't like wine. Really, they got a bad bottle that nobody would like. Would you go for a 10% failure rate with meat products? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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#139392 09/09/02 04:33 PM
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Nope, it doesn't bother me and yep, I'd go for that rate.

If an initiate in wine drinking opens a bottle with a defect in a cork and finds it unpleasant (by the way, a young wine drinker won't notice THAT much difference, since bad corks do not affect that musch except for severe and rare cases) and decides not to drink wine, well, then it's his/ her problem of being a bit shallow in logic. By the way, to be introduced into wine-drinking, you need to know someone who does it, so he could direct you for a while AND indicate it to you that this particular bottle of wine is damaged.

Good wine-makers test their corks. I mean REALLY test them.

10% rate is not that high. It also is not random. You'd usually have a group of bad corks, rather than every tenth bottle. I believe I have had a coupe of bottles with bad corks. Not a big deal. Taste is a bit spoiled. Wine was not expensive. I can live with that.

10% failure rate with meat? Sonds dangerous, except for I'm not sure how a meat can really fail. You buy not expensive meat, it might be not the freshest and purest around, but it's what you pay for. You buy the most expensive meat - you have an assurance that it will be the best, the human kind can make (with help of animal of course ...) at the moment. I eat meat a lot. Haven't had a single problem. You buy the cheapest meat around from England or USA (no offence), well, then it's up to you to know if you're lucky enough to be able to afford this risk.

A cannot except a plastic cork in my bottle of wine. It's just against everything. AND, do not forget the fact that wine can remain in bottles for a few years improving itself. Wouldn't improve much with a plastic cork.

The hybrid type. Sounds like an american "know-how" to me. It's just not the right way of doing things from my point of view.

I believe that either you exagerate the problem for no particular reason, either you make real bad corks in USA.

#139393 09/09/02 05:48 PM
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Many of the best selling technical stoppers and other synthetic corks come from England or Europe.

The majority of the combo corks are in the testing phase right now in Australia. The general results so far have been that natural cork is best for long aging wines, synthetic is great for wines that will be drunk upon the first year or two after release.

#139394 09/09/02 07:06 PM
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AINTD, wine improves because it sits in a bottle WITHOUT AIR <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So the plastic cork is just as good (if not better) than a tree-cork. You want a solid, permanent seal.

You know, the original wine makers used resin to cork their amphorae. We only got cork in the 1600s or so when we went to glass bottles. So this isn't an old tradition. It was just a convenient closure given the mass-production of glass bottles they wanted to do <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Almost all cork comes from Europe. It's the European cork which is tainted at the 10% rate. The 10% is a well tested industry rate in all countries. It's not just the US. It may be that you personally just don't notice the taint a lot of the time, you could perhaps drink wines that you think that's part of their normal flavor <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you drank strong reds for example you might taste the taint and think it's just an earthy, woody part of the flavor. When the taint gets worse it approaches mouldy cardboard. In any case, it is NOT the real flavor of the wine.

I'm impressed if you say wine isn't expensive <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Most people buy wine as a luxury item, and if you pay good money for a bottle, you don't want to have to pour it down the drain!

It's your choice of course. I'm just saying, if I'm going to pay $20 or $30 for a bottle of something just to go *with* my meal, that I don't want to have thrown that money away on a destroyed bottle that I have to pour out. I couldn't care less what object they use to keep the air out of the bottle. It's the wine that I care about.


P. Pureheart
#139395 09/10/02 03:23 AM
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To Lisa,

I don't know really. Maybe it's just that corks are easily damaged during transporting. Or maybe the bad europeans keep the best raw material to themselves. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I really haven't had anything wrong with my wine. I guess, I've taken enough for that rate to show itself.

If you like wines so much, then you must have heard about "Vega Sicilia" wine from Ribera del Duero origin. They test their corks three times. Twice in France, and once it gets here, in Spain. I guess that leaves the rate of failure at 0% level for them. A cork from a Vega Sicilia bottle costs $2. Then again, the bottle itself costs over $150.

Of course, not everyone follows THIS extreme high quality procedure, but still, good wines are expensive. You might also know, that the very best wine comes mainly from Priorat (a region in the north of Catalu�a, close to France). Their wines generally are expensive, but not too much. The cheapest bottle would come at ... say ... $12. OK ... information for everyone ... Rioja wines, and Ribera del Duero wines ARE NOT the best and not even close to that, in case you've heard something of that. Rioja makes quite a mediocre wine. Its best years were '94 and '95, but since then - NOTHING. Ribera del Duero simply are not as good as Priorat. By the way, you can congratulate me, I have recently managed to buy what I belive were the last 9 bottles of the third best wine in Spain in year '98 - "Clos Magador '98" from Priorat. It costs over $100, I was fortunate enough to come across a special place where they had 9 normal bottles and one Magnum bottle ... for just $35. But that's of course for special occasions.

There is VERY decent wine at very DECENT prices here. One type in particular is sold at $8 dollars a bottle, I found another special place which gave it away for $4'5 - the proper wine-maker in fact. It is possible that they have low control on corks and some of them fail. But that's what I come to expect from a bottle for $4'5. So far, no problems.

France makes the best wine, they use cork tree corks, then it just should be that way. I don't know what flavour the wine will have while staying in constant contact with plastic. Just don't know. Also, I'm not sure that it will be able to lie for a long time.

Californian wine is rumoured to be quite good actually, but also relatively expensive. In my special place they have some types of american wine, will report back on that later. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How often do you drink wines and at what price range? From what country?

#139396 09/10/02 09:15 AM
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Bodegas Vega Sicilia, maker of some of Spain's most prestigious wines, issued a recall of its Valbuena 5. Reserva 1994 (94 points, $70) in 2000 after discovering a problem with trichloroanisole taint, which causes "corkiness" in wines. They found of their five cork suppliers, two to have supplied inconsistent quality. So, it bodes well that they have a more stringent quality check on their wines.

Throughout my travels, I have found that sometimes what is considered taint attributed to cork may well be from some inconsistency in the wood of the aging barrels as well. My main concern (beyond any health concern that may arise due to bacteria) is the depletion of cork supply....of destruction to cork trees.

As to the expense of wines - hmmmm, I think it, of course, depends upon your locale and your tastes. I enjoy heavy, woody red wines....others may prefer light, fruity whites. I enjoy trying new wines and sometimes, <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> get an amazing wine for very little cost!! I find that my favorite standbys though are usually in the mid-range (for me eek ) of $25 to $35 USD per bottle. Is that expensive? For me, no.....is it a luxury? Definitely!

Kitty


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#139397 09/10/02 10:15 AM
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There is an article about the French cork trees on the Wine Page. Drop on by.

The types of wines I drink vary greatly. Prime Time Kitty is correct, tastes vary greatly. I enjoy woody wines, but my husband does not. What I drink depends upon the situation. I would not open a Barolo to sip casually with a friend.

The cost often does not reflect quality. When I lived in Italy I would drink wines that cost extremely little, but are of better quality than many expensive wines.

California is a good example of this. One of my favorite wineries is V. Sattui. It does not sell to stores. You can only purchase directly from the winery. One of the chardonnays is great at $13. The quality is far supperior to more expensive California chardonnays available in stores.

One of the joys of wine is finding the little wine or winery that is over looked by the masses.

#139398 09/10/02 01:15 PM
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I agree on little wineries. There some here, that never sell to any stores. They are sort of private. They do like 3000 of bottles a year and nobody knows about them. The quality is usually good. I believe that the more bottles a winery makes, the lower the quality, with exceptions.

Good expensive wines are best when opened in company of good friends and close people on a special occasion. You would'n be drinking a $100 (or even a $50 or $30 one) bottle sitting in the kitchen alone on a regular day with a regular meal.

#139399 09/10/02 01:17 PM
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I also agree that high price often doesn't reflect the quality, if you pay a lot of money, you must be sure what you're paying for. On the other hand, the good expensive wines are worth their money.

#139400 09/10/02 01:24 PM
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I drink wine daily, it's a normal part of my meal <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I drink mostly Californian wine because I really enjoy the variety of quality products they offer. I can have just about any grape variety in any style I wish. I also drink a lot of Australian/New Zealand wine. I enjoy Chianti and Amarone, and a number of French wines. Rioja is our standard with BBQ, and South Africa makes Pinotage which is great for picnics. For dessert I am a HUGE port fan and also love ice wines from Canada. So I really do try to keep my eyes open. I'm always buying new bottles just because I haven't tried that wine before, and try to find wines from all 50 states and from every country in the world I can.

US wines might not be cheap for you because they have to be imported, but here in the US they're really an excellent deal. The wineries do a great job of producting quality wine at reasonable prices. Of course two of my favorite US wines are Cain 5 on the red side and Arrowood Viognier on the white side, which run for around $90/bottle and $40/bottle respectively. so not cheap, unfortunately. For "regular drinking" we don't really house a "house wine" because the house is full of a large assortment of random bottles, no two alike. It's more than I want to try "one of every wine" so I rarely go back to previous ones <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have drunk my fair share of Spanish wines and I have had a number of them be corked. I don't buy multiple bottles of anything so it's not like I bought 3 of a particular winery's release and all were corked. These are all different releases.

Some of the most high end wineries, that sell bottles at $120/bottle and above, are completely going away from cork. They do NOT want to lose $120 because a single cork destroyed a single bottle, never mind losing that times multiple bottles. They are in fact going with ... SCREWCAPS. I know you're going to cringe at that, but as far as they are concerned and their tests are concerned, this is the PERFECT way to ensure the wine gets to the consumer in the most perfect manner possible. No contamination, no air getting in, a perfect seal.


Lisa, Birding Enthusiast
#139401 09/10/02 02:01 PM
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There is a proverb that says that the one who doesn't risk, doesn't drink champaign. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A bit on our subject. I haven't seen a single wine, not cheap nor expensive, nor rediculously expensive with a no cork tree cork.

As for the spanish wines. Trust no guides. They all say Rioja is good and Ribera del Duero is good. A lie (mostly). Out of a huge variety of Rioja wines I only drink (rarely), a '95 (I think) year "Marques de Caceres", which by the way is heavy on export side, so you may have seen it. Look for wines from "Priorat", it doesn't mean that they will be excellent, but they are most likely to.

OK, about american wines, that I guess mostly are Californian, at my special place. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

- Shafer Merlot '97 -- $48'93
- Shafer Cabernet Sauvignon '97 -- $62'82
- Shafer Hillside Caber. Sauvignon '96 -- $163'90
- Ridge Montebello Chardonnay '99 -- $56'26

There a dozen more of others as well.
NOTE: a 16% local tax is included in all prices.
NOTE: the prices come in Euroes which slightly lower than a dollar, that means that all the prices are actually lower in a dollar or two.

So, you tell me just how my place special is. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I guess it's a lot more expensive.

#139402 09/10/02 04:12 PM
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Ah, we agree. I find that many California wineries that I used to enjoy have over produced and lowered their quality. They have become too impressed with themselves or have totally catered to the tourist visiting the Napa California wine country.


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#139403 09/10/02 04:15 PM
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Yes, it's true. Many wineries producing high end wines are going with screw caps. There continues a long term study in Australia testing the caps and their effect on wine.


Professor Harold Hill
#139404 09/10/02 04:58 PM
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I also drink wine daily at dinner and at supper. I usually drink it alone - as my husband works evenings.

I was raised in an Irish/Italian (first generation) household where wine was a staple at meals. Even the children had diluted wine...

Once I identify a particular wine that I enjoy at meals, like an Australian shiraz...I may return to buy two or three bottles. However, I too have MANY different bottles in my cellar as I am constantly trying new or unfamiliar wines.


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#139405 09/10/02 06:42 PM
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AINTD, it's not suprising you're only seeing cork-tree corks. You live in cork-tree land and are drinking it appears mostly local wines. If you were drinking Californian and Australian wines I bet 25% or so of the bottles you opened would have a plastic cork in them <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I vote for the screwcap, it makes it nice and simple. Perfect wine all the time <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I've tried Marques de Caceres, it's pretty good. So you didn't like the Bodegas Montecillo?? I like that a lot and Wine Spectator named it one of the 100 best wines of 2001 ...

Oh, you said "You wouldn't be drinking a $100 (or even a $50 or $30 one) bottle sitting in the kitchen alone on a regular day with a regular meal." Actually I subscribe to the theory that a good wine makes any meal special. So yes, I'll pop open a $40 bottle of Arrowood with a chicken dinner, or a $45 Shiraz with a steak or something. Life is way too short not to enjoy good wine <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Lisa, Birding Enthusiast
#139406 09/10/02 06:53 PM
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Kitty, I think it's so true that kids who grow up with wine being "normal" grow up as adults that see wine as normal. In my experience it's the kids that grow up being told "Don't touch alcohol! It's evil! Evil!" are the ones that go diving for the drinking parties as soon as they can, and go around slurping glasses at weddings.


Lisa, Birding Enthusiast
#139407 09/11/02 12:30 PM
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Precisely, I didn't like Montecillo. And noone I know who tried it did. It's a pure speculation. You may have liked it, but I'm sure you haven't tried other spanish quality wines, then. You'd feel the difference. And for its price, there will be way more special wines, better than Montecillo. As far as I know, Parker has chosen only two spanish wines. One is this worthless Montecillo, and the other is from bodegas LAN, which is now being sold off. For the third wine country in the world, it is a bit odd result, two wines of 100? I bet that list is full of american and australian wines, though. Parker would be the last in the world to trust on wine subject for me.

How much does Cht. Margaux '96 cost in USA? And '98?

#139408 09/11/02 02:17 PM
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Actually I have tried many Spanish quality wines. I took Spanish for 6 years and was quite fluent in it for a while, and look out and help promote Spanish wines with my friends. Montecillo may not be popular with your friends, but it's very popular in the states <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I do enjoy it, even compared with other "Spanish Greats".

The Wine Spectator Top 100 list has tons of wines from all over the world. Their reviewers aren't just American, ya know <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They have reviewers all over the world. Many of the wines are French (maybe even most it appears), many are Italian, there are Austrian wines, Australian wines, German wines. While they're not the end-all for wine judging by any means, the wines they choose are generally thought of as "quality wines" by people who judge wines. I know a number of professional wine tasters and when they review wines they're not asking "is this wine tasty to ME". They're asking "is this wine true to its type?" which is a different question. It could just be that you (and your friensd) don't like the flavor that Montecillo is aiming for, but that they're aiming properly.

Here's Robin Garr's review, he loves it too:
http://www.wineloverspage.com/wines/wt090897.htm

The Canadians voted it a top 10 wine:
http://pages.infinit.net/fmrsomme/top10.html

In any case, every one of us is welcome to love or hate any wine they wish <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It could even be a cultural thing - that the types of foods you and your friends tend to eat tend to clash with that wine's flavors.


Lisa, Birding Enthusiast
#139409 09/11/02 09:42 PM
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Here are a couple of links dealing with corks, screw caps, and synthetic stoppers.

Wine Spectator noted that many wineries are indeed using screw caps.

AWRI has, as noted previously, been testing various stoppers. An important quote from the article, "I was reassured by the fact that the performance of the synthetic closures was very similar to that of the normal corks, but without the taint."

In fairness, there were some problems with screwcaps, but that was due to not leaving enough head room.

#139410 09/11/02 09:50 PM
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I can't agree more on the detriments of the American, puritanical view of alcohol. I live in a dry county. This means no wine or beer can be purchased or publicly consumed in the county. What this encourages is irresponsible people to drive to the next county, drink as much as they can, then drive back. Or they bring back beer and guzzle it down in an out of the way place and then drive home. Not a good situation.

I've lived in Germany, Belgium, and Italy. In all the years I lived in each of those locations I never saw a drunken adult or teen (outside of Americans). The attitude is very healthy. We share wine as a bonding experience, not trying to dull our senses.

I too usually have a glass of wine in the evening. On an occasion I might have two. I prefer to savor the experience of a nice wine. Every month my husband and I join friends for a more formal wine dinner. It's a great experience. Perfectly paired food and wine. Good friends with which to enjoy it. Very nice.

#139411 09/12/02 05:51 AM
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On Montecillo, Wine Spectator and Parker: Montecillo is not just unpopular between my friends and myself. It's just not accepted in Spain at all. If you ask a person who dedicates hmself to the wine, and ask what's the best wine, he wouldn't say Montecillo for sure. It's just not popular. And I have NO idea on how the hell "Spectator" (what a name), has chosen it. Also, Parker and magazines that follow him, have been known here for REALLY biased reviews and marks, I mean REALLY. If there was a law against it, they'd all be in jail.

What are the Spanish greats?

Since when Austrian and German reds are on par with Spanish? French wine is the best, Italian must also be very good, but Spanish is right in there, closing the top three. Parker is just promoting whatever he sees fit. I never follow the "BIG" wine guides, the best are the smallest, since they are the most objective and independent. The smaller, the better. And if you happen to come across of a group of pure enthusiasts, then you're definitely in luck. They will tell you million times more interesting and rare information than Parker and similar can ever imagine (or share).

By the way, off topic a bit, wine is considered to be extremely good for the health. It has alcohol that ruins brain cells and liver - yes, but it also DRASTICALLY lowers the bad cholesterol. For years, everyone was wondering about how could the french eat so much unhealthy food (full of fat and cholesterol) and still have a tremndously low rate of heart attacks and related illnesses. As you might have guessed, it's because they drink a lot of red wine with their world-famous (but still unhealthy) food, that compensates the negative effects of it. It is good to know that what you dring is not only pleasant but also is good for your health to a certain high degree.

#139412 09/12/02 03:54 PM
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The Austrian and Germans weren't reds, silly <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This was a "top 100 wines" not just "top 100 reds". so it included a Freie Weingartner Wachau Riesling from Austria, a Wolf Blass Riesling from Australia, a Thornbury Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand etc. It was just best wines across the range from whites to reds to Ports and Champagnes.


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#139413 09/12/02 03:57 PM
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In fact, the wine chosen best wasn't from the US or France, it was a Tuscan wine:

Tenuta dell'Ornellaia 1998

http://www.winecommune.com/lot.cfm/lotID/64797.html

Only $130 a bottle if you can find it <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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#139414 09/14/02 02:43 AM
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OK, you're right, I haven't seen the list, really due to its offensive matter. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But it's a really stupid idea, to compare different types of wines. It like comparing buses, trucks, sports cars, executive cars and excavators ... insane. Anyway, the fact that there are only two spanish wines (and what wines!) in the list, says it all. That is plain bad. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#139415 09/14/02 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Computer Games:
[qb]In fact, the wine chosen best wasn't from the US or France, it was a Tuscan wine:

Tenuta dell'Ornellaia 1998

http://www.winecommune.com/lot.cfm/lotID/64797.html

Only $130 a bottle if you can find it <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/qb]
Wonderul! For too long Italian wines have been ignored by the American wine powers.

#139416 09/14/02 04:17 PM
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They had? It's odd, since Italy is the largest wine exporter to USA, no wonder they get the place. Spain represents only 2% of the whole wine market in USA - 2 selections in the Parker's list, very intuitive.

#139417 09/15/02 11:45 PM
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Italy and France both have huge PR efforts to promote their wines and have consumers understand what to serve them with, when they taste good, what they're about. So Americans look at Chianti and think, "I know what Chianti is! I know what it tastes like and what to serve it with. I'll get some".

But as I've discussed in other wine forums I participate in, Spain has *awful* PR. They never promote their wines. So there's no demand for it. Ask most US wine consumers about Spanish wines and they've never heard a commercial for them, never seen them on wine lists, never read about them in magazines. I'm a wine writer and I get tons of literature from the French and Italian PR guys, promoting their wines. I *never* hear from Spanish wineries.

Spain has to do a better job of promoting their wines if they want people to realize they're good. Just look at what Godiva did for European chocolate with some great marketing <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now people think "Godiva = Great Chocolate!" Why aren't there any marketing blitzes out there for Spanish wines?


P. Pureheart
#139418 09/16/02 04:03 AM
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Have never heard of Godiva in the first place. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For me, good chocolate is associated with Lindt or some other Belgium / Swiss companies.

Spanish wine doesn't really need to be that promoted. Rioja makes sh** loads of wine, mostly bad one, they can hardly have a good PR.

Priorat wines are quite exclusive here, the good ones make from 50000 bottles a year, down to 3000 bottles, and ofcourse it is all sold out before it even gets to stores. I guess that's one of the reasons you never really get the spanish wine in USA.

Also, you may disagree, but I think that the less wine a winery makes, the better it will be.

I have spoken to a winery master recently. (Maybe you have even heard of it: Pie Franco from Jumilla). He said that does export to USA, that consumers there like slightly different wine, overheld in barrels to have a stronger wooden taste. They don't really do that here. He also said that some restaurant owner has asked him for 500 bottles of his Pie Franco, and he refused. Of course he has 500 bottles of it, and even more, but not much more, he doesn't want all the wine to go into a single place, but that's what often happens. Spain keeps all the good wine it makes to itself mainly. As I said, Rioja is heavy on exporting. Ask any person, if he knows at least something about wine, he'll tell you "Rioja is great" on Spanish wine. Talk about PR ...

Italian wines. Haven't really tried any, not attracted. I understand they are popular in USA ... maybe because every single town has at least one Italian Restaurant ...

A somewhat good example on similar treatment is in cars, BMW. It's previous M3 models were all a lot less powerful in USA. The good ones sold out in Europe without any problems, the bad ones were made for USA. I guess there are reasons for this, but it's something comparable.

#139419 09/16/02 06:26 PM
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You really should try Italian wines! Italy and France make some of the best wines on the planet, and the range of wines that both make are incredible. There are rich reds, light whites, fruity reds, heavy dessert wines, and everything in between. It's not just the US that drinks a ton of Italian wines, they're shipped all over the world.

The PR problem with Rioja could easily be overcome if the better Rioja wineries got together and marketed together. Italian Chianti companies got together and did the same thing. There are still lots of bad Chianti, but now the good ones really stand out and get the attention they deserve.

Really, you've never heard of Godiva?? I've seen them in France, England, everywhere I've travelled. You need to find some!! They are *exquisite*. Far better than Lindt in my opinion, Lindt's sort of one of my 'casual chocolates'. Godiva is my special occasion one <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Someone on my other forum posted this list of his favorite Spanish wines. Now to see if I can find any!!

Abadia Retuerta Rivola Sardon de Duero 2000 -- 750 Ml -- $10.99
Agricola Falset Marca Etim Old Vines Grenache 2000 -- 750 Ml -- $10.99

Allende Cabernet Sauvignon 1997 -- 750 Ml -- $19.99

Basa Sauvignon Blanc 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $7.99
Bodega Matarromera Crianza Ribera del Duero 1996 -- 750 Ml -- $17.99
Bodegas Angel Lorenzo Cachazo Las Brisas 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $6.99
Bodegas Calcona Partal Crianza Bullas 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $18.99
Bodegas Fernando Remirez de Ganuza Rioja Old Vines 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $39.99
Bodegas Godeval Godella Vina Godeval 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $9.99
Bodegas Ismael Arroyo Valsotillo Crianza 1999 Ribera del Duero -- 750 Ml -- $19.99
Bodegas Ismael Arroyo Valsotillo Reserva 1996 Ribera del Duero -- 750 Ml -- $36.99
Bodegas Muga Blanco 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $8.99
Bodegas Muga Gran Reserva Prado Ena 1995 -- 750 Ml -- $35.00
Bodegas Muga Tinto Rioja 1991 Reserva -- 1.5 Lt -- $70.00
Bodegas Muga Tinto Rioja 1998 Reserva Unfiltered -- 750 Ml -- $13.99
Bodegas Muga Torre Muga 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $51.99
Bodegas Ramirez Ramirez Piscina Rioja Gran Reserva 1994 -- 750 Ml -- $21.99
Bodegas Ramirez Ramirez Piscina Rioja Reserva 1996 -- 750 Ml -- $15.99
Bodegas Reyes Teofilo Reyes Ribera del Duero 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $27.99
Bodegas Y Vinedos Solabal Rioja Crianza 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $10.99
C-Torres C-Gran Sangre de Toro Reserve -- 750 Ml -- $7.99
Campo de Borja Borsao 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $6.99
Condado de Haza Tinto 1997 -- 750 Ml -- $19.99

Condado de Haza Crianza 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $18.99
Dominio de Eguren Codice Tinto 2000 Vino de La Tierra -- 750 Ml -- $6.99
Dominio de Eguren Protocolo Tinto 2000 Vino de La Tierra -- 750 Ml -- $5.99
Dominio de Egurin Protocolo Blanco 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $5.99
Emilio Moro Ribera del Duero 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $18.99
Fernendez La Granja 98 -- 750 Ml -- $27.99
Finca Allende Allende 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $16.99
Finca Allende Calvario 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $49.99
Finca Luzon Merlot 2000 Estate Bottled -- 750 Ml -- $7.99

Lar de Barros Macabeo 2000 -- 750 Ml -- $8.99

Lorinon Blanco 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $8.99

Lorinon Crianza 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $15.99
Marques de Caceres Gaudium 1994 -- 750 Ml -- $60.00
Marques de Caceres Gran Reserva 1991 -- 750 Ml -- $22.99
Marques de Caceres Red 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $12.99
Marques de Caceres Reserva 1994 -- 750 Ml -- $19.99
Marques de Caceres Rose 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $5.99
Marques de Caceres White 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $6.99
Marquis de Riscal Red VT -- 750 Ml -- $12.99
Marquis de Riscal White VT -- 750 Ml -- $6.49

Montecilla Red 1997 -- 750 Ml -- $9.49
Palacio de Fefinanes Albarino 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $16.99
Pazo de Senoras Albarino -- 750 Ml -- $18.49

Pesquera Tinto 1996 Ribero del Duero -- 750 Ml -- $26.99

Pesquera Gran Riserva 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $84.99
Real Sitio de Ventosilla Prado Rey Crianza 1999 Ribera del Duero -- 750 Ml -- $8.99
Rene Barbier Red -- 750 Ml -- $3.99
Rene Barbier White -- 750 Ml -- $3.99
Senorio de San Vincente Rioja Tempranillo 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $29.99
Sierra Cantabria Rioja Coleccion Privada 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $25.99
Sierra Cantabria Rioja Cuvee Especial 1998 -- 750 Ml -- $13.99
Sierra Cantabria Rioja Tinto 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $8.99
Telmo Rodriguez Valderiz Vino Tinto 1999 Ribera de Duero -- 750 Ml -- $18.99
Torres Gran Coronas 1994 Mas Plana -- 750 Ml -- $14.99

Txomin Extaniz Txakoli 2000 -- 750 Ml -- $16.99

Vina Alarba Old Vines Garnacha 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $7.99
Vega de Toro Numanthia 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $29.99
Vega Sindoa Cabernet Sauvignon/Tempranillo 1999 -- 750 Ml -- $7.99
Vega Sindoa Rose 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $5.99
Vega Sindoa Tempranillo/Merlot 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $5.99
Vega Sindoa Viura/Chardonnay 2001 -- 750 Ml -- $6.99


P. Pureheart
#139420 09/16/02 06:27 PM
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The Godiva Website:

http://www.godiva.com/welcome.asp

Really, try some <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


P. Pureheart
#139421 09/17/02 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AINTD:
[qb]They had? It's odd, since Italy is the largest wine exporter to USA, no wonder they get the place. Spain represents only 2% of the whole wine market in USA - 2 selections in the Parker's list, very intuitive.[/qb]
For this reason many equate Italian wine with cheap Chianti. I remember having a bad Lambrusco served with ice cubes in it. I often joke that the Italians don't waste their good wines on the US.

#139422 09/17/02 11:35 PM
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It's interesting that you haven't really tried Italian wines. Barolo is considered to be the wine of kings and the king of wines.

If you like chocolate give Godiva a try. It's superior to Lindt. My favorite Belgian chocolate is Leonidas.

#139423 10/06/02 11:31 AM
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OK, long time - no siege. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First of all, some comments on your list, Lisa. There are several good wines, most notable would be the Numanthia wine. But as I sad, out of the list, you can pick some 10 good wines. AND, just as I thought, there is not a SINGLE wine from Priorat. Priorat wines are somethink between spanish and french wines. The region is also high in the north in Catalunya, being close to France. This is point number one.

Point number two. Ragarding corks. I've been doing some reseraching and came across several articles, unfortunately I can not provide you with the links since it will be unreadable to you. You will have to rely on my word and on the people I mention. First of all, cork quality depends DIRECTLY from the quality of the wine, that is: the better and more expensive wine, will have a good cork. Second, in Europe - the serious winemaking community, there are no plastic corks, at least I haven't seen a single one in Spain, nor in France. Believe me, I've seen quite a few bottles of wine. Third, plastic corks are the invention of USA businessmen and are generally used for regular wine. Fourth - no trees are hurt during the production of the corks, so this argument is not valid. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Fifth, good wines have 99.9% in period good cork rate. Thats is: theoretically anything is possible, practically - not. Sixth, I've already mentioned it: Vega Sicilia (the real one) does 3 test of its corks, possibility of a taint is zero.

Bad corks - appear in bad and cheap wine. Think it for yourself, a cork in an expensive wine costs more than some whole bottle of a cheap wine. Do you think that the corks are the same there?

Taint is something that can be predicted, that means, that it is up to winery to find a good cork supplier. Portugal has the best cork trees.
You just need to know where the corks come from.

There are more detailed arguments regarding the cork production, but these are just details that reflect the quality of a cork.

Also, the 10% failure rate thing. If Priorat makes 10.000 bottles a year and Rioja and Ribera del Duero make 10.000.000 bottles combined, it is natural that they, making cheap wine raise this statistic. Statistics is a science of lies:

* If you have two cars and I have no car at all, by statistics, both of us have a car. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
* A joke:
A doctor is asked:
- What is the medium temperature in your hospital?
He says:
- 36'6 degrees! (errr ... that's the normal body temperature in case you have problems with Mr.Celsius).
Very simple: those who're about to die have 42 degrees, and those already in the morgue - around 20. :rolleyes: <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sad, but that's what statistics are.

Articles I read are based on:

Hugh Johnson "Story of Wine",
Jancis Robinson "The Oxford companion to Wine",
Larousse "Vins et vignobles de France".

As far as I'm concerned, Jancis Robinson is not a good friend of your beloved Mr.Parker, is she? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Never mind this, just a detail.

To conclude a bit. To Lisa and everyone else. I recommend you not to be blind and try to expand your views. I live in Spain and have a lot of moving on with wines. I like wines. It would be good for your information, formation and education to know what is really going here and not limit yourselves to local sources. You can do and think whatever you want but I'd be gratefull for an opportunity to see the world from a different angle and be able to learn more, considering that I do not come from China saying all this things about wines. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

P.S.
Chateau Margaux is considered to be the best red wine in France ... in the world. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#139424 10/07/02 03:36 PM
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I agree that people in Spain, Portugal and France probably use regular cork, because they live in Cork-Land. It's like having beef restaurants in Texas. They're supporting their local economy.

But plastic corks and screwcaps are not a US-only thing. Many, many wineries around the world are adopting them for the simple fact that any taint is bad. Regardless of the quality of the cork you get, there is always the risk of taint. It's *especially* the expensive wineries that don't want to destroy a $100+ bottle of wine just because of tree bark.

We'll just have to see in 20 or 30 years if your Spanish and French wineries give in to progress, or if they are willing to live with that risk even when the rest of the world has long since abandoned tree bark <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


P. Pureheart
#139425 10/08/02 10:06 AM
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<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Wineries around the world, and which ones are those if not French, Spanish and Italian? Of course, wine is made everywhere but it is not serious. France is the king of wine and as long as they use cork-tree corks - this gonna be the right way to make wine. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As I said, thereotically, there always is a risk in something, but practically - no. There is a risk that some spark gets inside a vehicle's fuel tank and it goes BOOM, and now what? We should all use electro-mobiles? :rolleyes:

There is a huge range in quality of corks. If USA importers buy the bad ones and use them to spoil the wine, well ... their problem. If spanish wineries buy bad corks and use them and spoil them - their problems. But one thing is for sure - good wineries will never buy bad corks. Conclusion: buy wine from good wineries. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Using plastic corks is more or less like using synthetic "leather" instead of the real one in cars and furniture.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Not France nor Spain are starving, changing the industry from tree to plastic cork production wouldn't hurt the countries that much. If good wineries really thought it would be better for them to change, they would have gone ahead without any doubts ... there is nothing holding them.

Anything can happen in 20-30 years. But as the things are nowadays, I'd say it will stay this way.

#139426 10/08/02 11:14 AM
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I thought we got past this good wine - bad wine thing. I can find you more references, but it has little to do with good wine - bad wine. *All* cork has a 5%-15% potential to be bad. Even "good cork". There is no 100% guaranteed way to remove TCA from a cork. So any cork, of any shape, size, color, or source, can be infected. Any WINE can be infected. And many really really good wines HAVE been infected. They are just caught by internal quality control before they get out to the masses, because they are usually kept in bottles at the winery for longer, and are caught. But the wine is still destroyed, which upsets the wineries very much.

Since you are a strong believer of "French Wine is the Best" (despite US wines winning out over them in many international taste tests) I will find you some proof that good French wineries are indeed affected. It has nothing to do with the quality of the wine. ALL wines are affected.


P. Pureheart
#139427 10/08/02 11:18 AM
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From a French wine tour group:

http://www.wine-tours-france.com/FrenchwineFAQ.htm#corked

"There is a great deal of controversy as to the real origin of the corked defect in wine. Many people believe that it is caused by a poor quality cork, but in reality, even the highest quality cork can be affected. Some people have gone so far as to attribute the smell of moldy cork in the wine to the fact that the wine was laid on its side and � absorbed � the taste and smell of its cork! "

"One teaspoon of the stuff is potent enough to destroy all the wine produced in the U.S., and one affected cork packaged with thousands of others could contaminate the whole batch."


P. Pureheart
#139428 10/08/02 11:24 AM
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From a tasting:

http://www.auswine.com.au/forum/tnotes/427.html

"1996 Louis Carillon & Fils Puligny Montrachet �Les Perrieres� 1er cru (Burgundy)
It was with much anticipation I lifted my glass, and with equal speed I put it down, barely able to discern any aromas of wine under the overwhelming TCA infection. Not even tasteable. Bugger!"

I think Burgundy is in France, isn't it? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"1983 Chateau Lafite Rothschild (Paulliac)
Hmmm � Chateau Le Feet, as somebody remarked. Something is wrong here. This wine is very musty indeed. For a while I though our visiting expert was going to defend it (on the grounds of tannin structure, etc) but this must surely have been suffering TCA or oxidation or a combination of the two. It�s my first Lafite, and I can�t believe it�s built it�s reputation on wines like this. A musty nose & no palate � what a bummer."

I hear that Paulliac is also a French wine <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


P. Pureheart
#139429 10/08/02 11:30 AM
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Again I think the problem with TCA in French wines is that inexperienced wine drinkers who drink French wines that are mildly tainted think that flavor is *part* of the normal wine flavor. They don't realize it's a wrong flavor.

"Sometimes the characters that a bad cork imparts elicits mild "This doesn't taste like it did the last time," or "this wine doesn't have any aroma," or "this is just like my Grandmother's basement or potting soil...," or "boy, you can tell this is a French wine!"

http://www.chehalemwines.com/newsletter/ pdf_archive/2000_fall.pdf


P. Pureheart
#139430 10/08/02 11:32 AM
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http://www.amcnab.demon.co.uk/cif/info.htm

"In another study in 1999 the French consumer magazine �Que Choisir� showed that many Bordeaux wines in the 1980�s and early 1990�s had been tainted with TCA while the wine was still in barrels. The cause in these cases was discovered to be a fungicide - pentachlorophenol, commonly used (until it was banned in 1994) for treating wood. In the humidity of the cellars the fungicide in new wooden panels and beams had transformed into unpleasant volatile compounds like TCA which were polluting the entire atmosphere. The report points out that until 1994 the same fungicide was routinely used on wooden pallets."

Been drinking any 80s Bordeaux recently?


P. Pureheart
#139431 10/08/02 11:36 AM
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http://www.the-stupids.com/wine_bordeaux.htm

"'96 Beaumont (Haut-Medoc) ($13): Sixth time I've tasted this and they've all been tainted with TCA. JD "


P. Pureheart
#139432 10/08/02 11:37 AM
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http://www.thewinedoctor.com/index2.htm?http://www.thewinedoctor.com/formalbordeaux1981.htm

"Ch�teau L�oville Barton (St Julien) 1981: Again here we have a similar hue. On the nose we have some fruit with a lick of graphite, but this is spoiled by a dirty, vegetal note which becomes more obvious and woody with time. A corked wine. Nevertheless, fairly lush on the palate, spicy and peppery, but marred by the musty notes of TCA. Underneath there is good structure. The finish is dirty and harsh. What a crying shame, this would have been a wonderful wine. Faulty."

"Ch�teau Latour (Pauillac) 1981: Quite a dense, caramel-mahogany wine. Unfortunately there are horrendous corked aromas from this wine, which I just couldn't get past on the nose. On the palate, good fruit, strong tannins and a nice structure shows that this may have been a lovely wine. Oh dear. Faulty."


P. Pureheart
#139433 10/08/02 11:38 AM
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OK I'll stop there. Suffice it to say that I easily found on the web hundreds of references to corked French wines, of all price ranges and areas. It happens to them all. French wines are not immune.


P. Pureheart
#139434 10/09/02 02:19 AM
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<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So much enthusiasm. You really DO read every fifth word I write ...

First of all, regarding all these "independent" international contests ... you know what I will say on this, so there is no need to do that ... :rolleyes: If you ever happen to come to France, Spain or Italy, don't shout to much about American wine being the best, else your visa will be revoked. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Many quotes, some interesting, mostly irrelevant. A $13 French wine can't be good nor reliable. This is not the price of the real French wine.

Find me a quote saying something like "In year ****, which had the best fruit, wine has been spoiled be corks in all of France!"

You have found several quotes saying, "Ah, this bootle is spoiled ...", so what? There are thousands of other bottles which are perfectly OK. There is no tragedy.

By the way, the control quality only increases, so does the production quality. The corks will only become better, not worse.

Those saying that ALL corks, for all wines have the same failure rate are amateurs.

I'm not insisting on anything, you can go on and drink your plastic cork wine made in America, and ignore all the bad wine imported from real wineries. America needs centuries to learn some things, including the wine making industry. This is absurd for me and everyone I know. Can't believe you're serious ...

#139435 10/09/02 01:25 PM
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If you say

"You have found several quotes saying, "Ah, this bootle is spoiled ...", so what? There are thousands of other bottles which are perfectly OK. There is no tragedy."

Then that is the core of our difference. You think it's fine to spend money on a bottle of wine and have that wine be trash. I think it is NOT find to spend money on a bottle of wine and have it be trash. I would not accept that in any other product I buy, be it a car, a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, a new dress. If I take the time to choose something, pay cash for it, bring it home, store it properly for a few months, choose the right glass and pour it out to enjoy, I want it to be drinkable. Regardless of WHAT wine it is. End of story.

As far as percentage of people in the world who realize corkage is a problem, every single magazine I subscribe to (and I subscribe to many, many of them international) feels this is a serious problem. And their readers who write in all agree there *is* a problem, and only disagree about ways to address the problem. No reader has ever said "It's OK if some percentage of wines are destroyed".

If you and your friends don't feel corkage is a problem, that is your perogative. But across the world, you are in a minority.


P. Pureheart
#139436 10/10/02 08:36 AM
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We're not in minority, since the things are the way they were all the time before this topic and nothing is going to change, at least any time soon.

There is a difference - wine is not made by plan, you can not plan something like that. Bred is massive, dress - you can return it, cars - they can be fixed and be as new, wine - nothing ... you discover it when you drink it.

I still insist that good wines don't have this problem in the degree you describe. And bad wines ... well, just don't drink them. If once a year, a bottle is spoiled ... not a big deal ... that may upset you, but it is not the reason to get so preoccupied.

#139437 10/16/02 04:43 PM
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If you ever happen to come to France, Spain or Italy, don't shout to much about American wine being the best, else your visa will be revoked.

Well, not really. When I lived in Belgium, Germany, and Italy a common statement I heard at wine producers around Europe was, "American wine is much better than I thought."

Most Europeans also don't spend a great deal on the wine they drink every day. I have friends is various countries with extensive cellars. They don't feel a need to open wines that cost over $10 ever day. They find wines that they many different wines that they can drink, enjoy and don't worry about the price.

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